Jiayi CHEN 陈佳艺

During the pandemic, Jiayi CHEN began to focus on subjects surrounding her immediate life. Rather than imitating paintings and artists she admired, she was able to develop her own personal style which expressed her thoughts and emotions at a given time.

疫情期间，陈佳艺开始关注周围事物的主观变化，创作了一组持续性的作品。她的创作主题从之前以模仿和拓展他人的作品主题为主，转变为以其个人风格及心情表达为主，即时地去表达她个人的情感和思考。

Biography

Jiayi CHEN: Student at the Renmin University of China majoring in Landscape Architecture

陈佳艺：中国人民大学景观建筑专业在读

Text Version of Video

Hi, I’m Jiayi CHEN. I’d like to talk about my work during the pandemic, and the changes I’ve made during this period.

Since the outbreak of the pandemic in China, the lockdown was implemented on the second day of Chinese New Year in 2020 and, as a result, I stayed at home in Beijing for 46 days.

At that time, my schedule of work and rest was always chaotic. I stayed up late and the beginning of my day was transient. Once I got up, I started painting immediately until one or two in the morning. After that, I probably didn’t get up until the middle of the next day. This was so different to my life before the pandemic.

The most extensive Pivot for me is that it was my mood.  It was easier for me to be happy and relaxed again after the pandemic because I suffered hard during it. So, when my life got back to normal., I found that I could cope with difficulties much easier than before. What is more, my agitated moods subsided.  Therefore, gradually, I have found that these things were indeed not that difficult to manage. I think my life now is like an old Chinese saying: “Not pleased by the external gains, not saddened by personal losses”.

The artwork from this time has a kind of continuity to it. I worked on creating these works from February 2020 to February 2021, so a whole year. At the time of the pandemic, I was so bored of being isolated at home. I watched some movies or did some cooking and I thought it was interesting to look at the bottles of ingredients at home, and I drew randomly at that time as well.

For me, these artworks document the first half of the pandemic. Each of my paintings was inscribed with its date of being completion and I also noted things like what I’ve eaten, what I did, what my mood was like, etc too.

It’s just a record of my work then because now, I consider painting as something that is totally dependent on my own state of mind.  It can be created however I want it. In the past, sometimes, I was influenced by other stuff, such as, if I saw a nice painting, I would like to imitate that style which could never let my paintings realise the most natural things from my own artistic imagination.  However, after the pandemic, I feel that now that I am not taking painting as my major or skill anymore, the key point of my painting is to express my thoughts. As a sort of inner resource, it’s enough for me to paint in a way that expresses or transmits my feelings.

大家好，我叫陈佳艺，想要和大家聊一聊我在疫情期间的创作，和创作带给我的一些转变，或者说是转变带来的一些创作。

因为疫情需要隔离，我是从2020年的大年初二就开始隔离，然后在北京一直隔离了46天没有出家门，46天之后才第一次出家门。我疫情期间作息非常不好，会熬夜，可能每天晚上一两点，或者两三点才会睡，感觉一天的开始是晚上九十点钟。九十点钟我就开始画画了，画到一两点才会睡觉，第二天可能中午十一点、十二点才起。与疫情发生前的不同，是作息（时间）上有整体的后移，没有疫情之前，（我）是应该11点就睡的，但是有疫情之后，就变到了2点钟。

我认为我自己在疫情下最大的转折点，就是幸福感有很大的提升，因为我经过疫情后觉得幸福的生活来之不易，所以转折点就是觉得自己的幸福感有更大的提升，觉得自己面对一些比较棘手、比较困难的事情时，也不会有那种烦躁的情绪，会积极得着手去做，觉得这些事情都不算太困难了，可以说是慢慢地变得“不以物喜，不以己悲”。

我这组作品是一个持续性的作品，它从2020年的2月份开始，一直到2021年的2月份，几乎持续了一年。我疫情期间在家隔离太无聊了，就看了一些电影，包括有的时候做做饭，看看灶台上的瓶瓶罐罐挺有意思，偶尔就画一画。这组作品对于我来说，其实就是我在（疫情）前半部分比较特殊的时期的记录。因为我的每张画后面都会写当时那天的日期，包括那天吃了什么、干了什么，内心戏怎么样，其实就是一个记录。现在我对于绘画的感受，就是自己随心所欲就好。以前可能经常会受他人所左右，比如在其他地方看到很好看的画，就觉得自己想要模仿这种风格。但是经过疫情之后，觉得自己本身也不是学绘画专业的，好像技法不是很重要，重要的还是自己情感的表达，你画出来之后，自己快乐了，绘画作为一种形式的依托，带给你情感表达或者情感转移的需求，我觉得就足够了。

Staff

Contact Person: Ifance FAN, Christy YANG
Planner: Christy YANG
Text: Christy YANG
Translator: Jiaqi GAO
Proofreading: Calum BAIRD

Kira SPEISER

“Lockdown opened a shut door and I began looking for space which led me to an abandoned chemical site in town that offered affordable spaces to small businesses and individuals. I went from a dark small cellar room to a 12m high and over 100m² big space within a subculture of individuals who are pursuing their dreams.”

Biography

Kira is a Swiss/Danish artist based in Zurich who holds regular exhibitions at Galerie Wehrli. She focuses on urban and landscape painting, inspired by the instant moment.   “I work horizontally, as the paint flows with the intent of two worlds: from a distance, it’s nearly photographic; from up close, there is chaos and it’s abstract.”   Her traditional subjects clash with the metallic material that stands as a metaphor for light.

Kira 是一名现居于苏黎世的瑞典艺术家，其曾在基尔希画廊多次举办个展。 “我个人的绘画创作主要以城市和自然景观的主题，这些创作的主要灵感来自于瞬息之间的感触。远看，这个世界是十分具象且固态的，但近看，却又尽是游离与喧嚣；我的创作意图去把握这两者之间的关系与节奏，并流连其中。我欲以金属去冲击那些传统的主题，并以某种光的隐喻为身份进行存在。”

Studio Tour

Interview

Going the opposite direction 逆行

In the years after art school, I had an independent studio in London, Denmark and Madrid. When we moved to Zurich our family situation and property prices meant that I had my workspace in the cellar of our rental home.  I have been living, working and perfecting the “home office“ over the last 18 years while exhibiting regularly with a Gallery in Zurich.

在毕业后的几年里，我在伦敦、丹麦和马德里都有独立的工作室。当我们搬到苏黎世后，略显窘迫的家庭状况和偏高的房价使我的工作空间仅仅只限于狭小的地下室中。在过去的18年里，我一直在完善和适应我的“家庭办公环境”，并会定时在苏黎世的一家画廊展出我的作品。

And then Corona happened. With everyone around me moving in, my carefully constructed border between my art world and my everyday life started to blur, slowly paralyzing my creative process. However, the Lockdown opened a shut door and I began looking for space which led me to an abandoned chemical site in town that offered affordable spaces to small businesses and individuals. I went from a dark small cellar room to a 12m high and over 100m2 big space within a subculture of individuals who are pursuing their dreams. While Corona forced people into the home office it felt I was going in the opposite direction. As I draw my inspiration for my paintings from the outside world (which wasn’t available in lockdown) I started looking inwards, visiting  and reworking themes from my past.

随后，疫情爆发了。随着我周围的人都搬入了室内，我精心构建的艺术世界和我的日常生活之间的边界开始变得模糊，我的创作过程慢慢被延缓着。然而，封锁却为我打开了一扇窗，它使我可以寻找到一个合适的空间——一个为小企业和个人提供了实惠空间的废弃化工厂。于是我走出了黑暗的小地下室，并走进了一个12米高、100多平方米大空间，一个属于我们这些追求梦想的亚文化群体的空间。当疫情迫使人们在室内办公的时候，我感觉自己仿佛在向他们逆行。当我无法从外部世界获得绘画灵感的时候(封锁限制) ，我开始重新审视自己的内心世界，回顾并重启过去的线索。

My planned exhibition in the gallery in Zurich got cancelled. In spite of having an ambiguous relationship with marketing myself (leaving that job to my gallery and agent), I began to post my work on social media. New and old collectors started to show interest in my work and the new loft studio, which led to sales and commissions. Although I’ve not quite yet arrived in the NFT world.

我原本计划在苏黎世画廊举办的展览被迫取消了。尽管我对于自我营销的这一个概念十分模糊(我把这个工作留给了我的画廊和经纪人) ，我还是开始在社交媒体上发布我的作品。新老收藏家开始对我的作品和新的复室工作室表现出兴趣，这也为我带来了作品的销量和资金。虽然我还未踏进 NFT 的世界。

Staff

Contact Person: Isabel DIERINGER
Planner: Isabel DIERINGER
Text: Isabel DIERINGER
Translator: Jiaqi GAO
Proofreading: Calum BAIRD

Bing SU 苏冰

Biography

Bing SU: Chinese famous disciplinary curator, artist

Bing SU aims to take the multidimensional view of this period by inviting the artists, designers, art patitioners and institutions from different regions, and also, researching their artworks during different period of the pandemic. He hopes to use the impulse of Culture, Art and Creativity to let people ease their anxiety. In order to achieve that, he also interviewed artists all over the world and generated the CC Project as an online communicating platform of Artworld to scope artistic impacts and changes of the pandemic.

苏冰，知名跨界策展人、艺术家

苏冰在疫情期间通过发现和邀请不同时期、不同地域的艺术家、设计师、创意工作者及机构组织在疫情前后的创作，侧面来重新审视这个历史的时刻，也希望通过文化艺术和创意的力量，可以让人们停止内心些许的恐慌。同时苏冰还采访了国内外的艺术家，并通过CC计划开设艺术家之间的线上交流平台，深入探索疫情对艺术领域带来的影响和转变。

Event Overview

There are three parts of this event：

1. Video of a conversation with the curator Bing SU 访谈策展人苏冰
2. Video transcription in English and Chinese 视频内容文字版（中英文）
3. Call for discussion on topics of art in the post-pandemic era 后疫情时代的艺术话题讨论

Interview

Host: Nerissa YUAN (袁嘉苡）

Guest: Bing SU (苏冰)

The names abbreviated to “Nerissa” (Nerissa YUAN) and “SU” (Bing SU)

主持人：袁嘉苡 Nerissa YUAN

嘉    宾：苏   冰 Bing SU

(之后姓名分别缩写为“袁”、“苏”，英文版为“Nerissa”、“SU”)

Nerissa: Hi, Bing SU, it’s so nice to have you as our guest today.

Bing SU: Hi, Nerissa YUAN, thanks R-Lab for inviting me to join today’s online interview.

袁嘉苡：您好，苏冰老师，很荣幸今天能邀请到您来参加我们的线上访谈。

苏冰：你好，袁嘉苡同学，感谢你以及R-Lab组织邀请我进行访谈。

Nerissa: Our pleasure! Okay, now we are going to start our interview. As we all know, the outbreak of Covid-19 has had a huge influence on our lives and our work, accompanied by a multitude of changes. Could you, therefore, tell us about the ways you have arranged your work and life during this period?

SU: Due to the outbreak in January 2020 in China, and we spent three months controlling the spread of the pandemic until April, it was really a tough time for which had a significant impact on everyone’s daily life. I remember clearly when we were able to get back to normal life (and work) gradually at the end of March (2020). I am based in Shanghai and the pandemic situation there was relatively optimistic, both my team and I were trying our best to do our work at home remotely. Then in April of last year (2020), we had basically resumed our normal lives and we curated an Art exhibition in Shenzhen. The exhibition was one of the earliest art exhibitions in China after the outbreak and it was clear that it had influenced the work we curated. What’s more, I think all the art institutions and curating companies were impacted during the pandemic and started to recover in April (2020).

袁：能邀请到您我们深感荣幸。好的，那我们现在就开始进行采访了。众所周知，疫情的爆发为我们的生活、工作等等都带来了非常大的影响，并伴随有许多转变。那么我想请问一下苏冰老师，在疫情期间，您是如何安排您的工作和生活的呢？

苏：因为疫情国内是在2020年的一月初爆发的，当时这个爆发在国内的情况是从1月份一直到4月份，这段时间确实是比较严峻的，然后对大家的生活和工作确实有很大的影响。我记得很清楚，到3月底的时候，我们才开始恢复（到之前的生活），但也是逐渐恢复。在上海（疫情情况）还算好，我们的团队，包括我自己，都是在尽量采取在家里办公、远程办公这样一个方式。然后到去年的4月份，（国内生活和工作）就开始逐渐走向正常状态。所以去年四月份我们就在深圳办了一场艺术展，那确实（开始得）是非常早的。所以确实（生活和工作）是受到影响的，应该说去年，很多，不仅仅是我，所有的国内做艺术类的策展公司也好，机构也好，那段时间都受到了影响，到4月份才逐渐恢复。

Nerissa: Now it seems that we are gradually getting the pandemic under control in China, our lives and work are almost back to normal, so could you tell us a little about the differences you have found in your life or work after the pandemic? Are they different from the period before or during the pandemic?

SU: Basically, in China, our lives are almost back to normal, so there are less exhibitions themed around the pandemic and everyone is focusing on what’s happening now instead of looking back. There was a variety of exhibitions about the pandemic covered throughout 2020, but our present situation is much safer and controllable, so our artistic themes are more about vaccination and our status quo.

袁：疫情也有好转了，我们的生活还有工作都恢复到差不多正常，那么我想问一下，您现在的生活状态还有工作的内容会跟（国内）疫情爆发前，或者疫情爆发期间有什么不同吗？

苏：现在国内基本上都正常了，一些展览和疫情（主题）接轨的就少了，大家不太会去讨论这个话题。像去年，整个2020年，相关这样话题的内容还是比较多，但今年就（少了），因为现在国内控制得比较好，相关于这方面的话题或创作就会少很多。但是现在就会面临一个新的话题，就是打疫苗这个话题（笑）。

Nerissa: You have been visiting the art studios of different artists since 2014, have you noticed any changes during the pandemic in what they are creating? Could you tell us about the most impressive change among them from your perspective?

SU: Do you mean the differences that have emerged since I started visiting art studios? I think all arts-practitioners in China were badly affected by the pandemic, as a result, they started to have some new perspectives of our society and on the whole world. Some of these changes in perception are reflected in their lives and even in the art they create. I have a lasting memory from June of last year (2020) when we had an exhibition in Chengdu on a national tour in Xu Liaoyuan Art Museum. At that time, because of the pandemic, many artists, their work, income and living conditions were impacted so significantly that some of them were seeking part-time jobs. Obviously, their work would be affected by these circumstances.

袁：（笑）我们有注意到您从2014年开始就一直有艺术家工作室的探班计划，您有观察到他们在疫情期间一些工作上的变化或者转变吗？从您的角度来说，您印象最深刻的那种转变是什么？

苏：你是说这个工作室探班计划在疫情期间（的转变）是吗？我觉得这次疫情对国内很多做艺术的工作者、艺术家来说，确实影响蛮大的。也让大家对自己的创作，包括对社会、对这个世界的认知有了一些新的感受。有些（转变）都会体现到他/她自己的生活状态，甚至创作内容中。那么去年我印象很深刻（的一件事）是在6月份，我做展览做到成都的时候，在成都许燎源美术馆，我们当时有一个全国的巡展。（那时）成都很多年轻艺术家确实因为疫情，他/她的生活、经济来源，包括工作都受到影响，甚至有些人在考虑找一些兼职的工作。这些确实也会影响到他们的一些创作，这是事实。

Nerissa: The CC Plan ( an artistic project raised during the pandemic, the CC is about Communication and Connection) you have created during the pandemic really inspired those of us who would like to engage in the future of the Art world.  We have noticed that the keywords of the “CC plan” are “minority”, “deep”, “thematic” and “in any way”, could you talk about that? What are your intentions with this plan? And why did you pivot to create this plan during the pandemic?

SU: That’s really a good question. In fact, after the outbreak of the pandemic last year, we have started a project called “Post-Pandemic Era” at home.  I think we have published more than a dozen blogs through our official account on WeChat.  There were nearly 100 artists and their artworks which were created during the pandemic and published in form of interviews and articles that divided into different but related themes like the contents of our blogs, and the blogs were published according to different relative stages.  We are pleased that all those blogs received a great reception.

The CC plan is a section of the Post-Pandemic Project formed as a dialogue column. We decided to organize artists, art critics and art lovers through online conversations because meeting up during that period was not prohibited.  So, the CC plan was an independent section of the Post-Pandemic Era project’s program.

Speaking of which, I have just remembered that after publishing blogs online, we launched another part of the “CC Plan” when the lockdown was lifted in China. We launched a call for artworks together with the organisation of Shanghai Design Week, about a thousand artworks were collected and we selected works from this to join our exhibition held at the Shanghai No.10 Subway Station.

(PS: the number of the artworks published by blogs during pandemic is also 100)

袁：是的，然后您在疫情期间所打造的CC计划对我们这些未来想要从事艺术行业的人有非常大的启发和思考。我们有留意到您的CC计划是以小众、深度、主题式、沟通、任何方式为关键词来沟通进行的，想请问一下您打造这个计划的初衷和目的，以及什么样的转变使您想要打造这个计划？

苏：这个是一个很好的话题。实际上去年疫情一爆发以后，当时我们在家里就开始提出了一个叫作后疫情时代（的项目），当时我们应该是持续做了十几期，通过公众号、微信推出了大概十几期，我不知道这个你们有没有关注？包括我们做了十几期的采访、推文，然后每一期都有相关的主题，同时收集了很多，将近有100多位艺术家的作品，（他们）在疫情期间创作的作品，然后我们分阶段做了一些推送，反响特别好。CC计划是后疫情时代（项目）其中的一个对话栏目，因为大家（当时）不能够聚集，那么我们可以通过线上的方式，组织一些艺术家、评论家、艺术爱好者（进行）对话。所以这个（CC计划）是在我们后疫情时代这个大的艺术计划里面的独立项目。

说到这个“后疫情时代”，当时我们邀请、发现了大概有100位左右的艺术家的作品进行了推送，后来我们又跟上海设计周这个组织发起了一个征集活动，征集了大概有1000多件作品，最后我们挑选了100件作品在上海10号线地铁（站）进行了展出。

Nerissa: That is incredible. I am wondering, then, if there were any difficulties you needed to overcome during the project?

SU: There were a few problems. For example, when we were going to contact the Chinese artists abroad, a few of them refused. I can understand that they didn’t want to participate or talk about the pandemic because they’re in a foreign country at that time.  We were still very lucky that most of the artists invited took part and made a positive contribution. Another difficulty was that also suffered different problems which emerged from relying on online communications.  This meant that our conversations did not always go smoothly. These were the two main points that caused us problems.

袁：那想请问一下在这个项目的进行过程中，有没有遇到什么困难是您要去克服的？

苏：遇到过一些。比如当时我们想去联络一些在国外的华人艺术家，个别艺术家可能会抗拒，这我也能够理解，（因为）他们可能不太想参与到这样一个话题（中），或者说不太想讨论这样一个话题，因为他们在异国他乡，所以（这种情况）我们也碰到过，但是大部分艺术家都还是积极参与的，这是一部分（困难）。还有一部分困难在于，毕竟还是在远程沟通，就会存在沟通并不是那么顺畅（的情况），因为不能够面对面（沟通）。主要是这两方面。

Nerissa: You mentioned the “Post-Pandemic Era” project.  Before our interview, we had noticed that the blogs you have posted on the WeChat account were named “Post-SARS Era” previously, then the name was changed to the “Post-Pandemic Era”.  Can you tell us the reason for doing that?

SU: This was because when the pandemic first broke out, we really didn’t expect it would be so severe.  Consequently, I just made an analogy.  If SARS was mild for all of us, then the pandemic affects everyone. My original thought was that after a period, the pandemic might have been controlled and eradicated.  We did not expect it to last so long, and that this time it would be so hard for the whole world to overcome. As we know, SARS subsided within half a year, so at first, the name used was “Post-SARS”, and this was intended to make sure that people would never forget the impact of SARS, and I had realized that this time it would have a profound impact on the whole world, whether it would be economic, cultural or artistic aspects. I did not expect the pandemic to exist for such a long time, however. Later, my colleagues and friends suggested that the word “Post-Pandemic” fits our situation more, so the name was changed.

袁：我刚刚有听您提到“后疫情时代”（这个项目），我们有注意到您的公众号在前几期的推文当中是将名字取名为“后非典时代”，第十期的时候改名为“后疫情时代”，想问下是因为什么（原因）会有一个名称上的转变？

苏：因为刚爆发的时候（我们）并没有想到这一次的疫情会这么严重，当时真的没想到，我就是打了个比喻，如果说当年的非典对我们所有人来说是一次感冒的话，那么这次疫情对大家来说更严重，像一场住院。我（本来）想，经过一段时间，这个疫情可能就退却了，解决掉了，但事实上（我们）没有想到它的周期这么长，这一次人类面对这个问题是那么的艰巨。因为我们知道，非典其实在半年时间（内），它就自然消退了，所以最早我提出来的（推文标题）是“后非典”，让我们不要忘记非典给我们带来的所有影响，而且我当时也意识到这一次一定会给全球，无论是经济还是文化、艺术方方面面都会带来很深远的影响，但是没有想到（疫情）周期那么长。（所以）后来很多朋友、同事反映，他们觉得应该提“后疫情时代”（作为标题）更好，后来就改过来了。我觉得“后疫情时代”更恰当。

Nerissa: Yes, I agree with you. I’d like to ask whether there are any artists that impressed you during the process of your call for artworks? Would you like to tell us about these artists or their artworks?

SU: Sure. You have reminded me of two artists. The one which especially impressed is her name is Shuai Wang from Henan province. She produced hundreds of black-and-white illustrations throughout the pandemic, this series of illustrations is called “Stories and Living Beings during the Pandemic”. After the completion, we helped her to publish it, the response was great, with tens of thousands of hits and a lot of attention, including media reports about her across China. She used hundreds of illustrations to describe her feelings, her friends’, and the conditions of people during the whole pandemic.

There is another artist who is an internet celebrity in China, named Jingyi ZHU. I interviewed him during the pandemic, and, he has produced some artwork in that time.

No one suspected that there were problems of health which affected his work and even his whole life hugely. These two artists are the ones who really impressed me.

In addition, something regrettable happened during the pandemic last year (2020). Some of our art colleagues have left the industry for different reasons, physical or circumstantial, some of them were good friends.  I always feel sad when talking about these things.  Therefore, I think the pandemic really is forcing us to re-recognize and rethink different aspects of the whole world, whether as artists or as arts-practitioners.

袁：那想请问一下在“后疫情时代”这个项目当中，在艺术征集的过程中，您有印象非常深刻的艺术家或者他们的艺术作品可以介绍（给我们）吗？

苏：这个我倒是可以推荐一两位，到时候可以把资料都发给你们。尤其（印象深刻的）是一位来自河南的80后女性艺术家，叫王帅。她在整个疫情期间一共创作了几百幅的黑白插画，创作了一个系列叫作“疫情故事和众生相”。这一个系列做完以后，我们也帮她做了推送，反响特别好，有上万的点击量和关注，包括全国很多媒体对这个艺术家（进行）报道。她是通过几百张的插画描述了整个疫情期间她的感受以及她身边朋友的感受，以及人们的一些状态。同时她在疫情期间组织了几百个在家（创作）的艺术爱好者，主要是女性（艺术家）为主，组了一个社群。因为这次疫情也会对很多人的心理上造成一些影响，有些人长时间不出门，他/她会有孤独症，有些人找不到一个（情绪宣泄的）出口，那么她组织这样一个叫作“画画那点事”的社群（互助艺术家），这个社群到现在还在，还非常活跃。我觉得她这两个方面：一个方面是自己的创作，另外一方面是她组织的这个社群， 对大家在疫情期间起了很好的作用，甚至是说艺术起到了治愈的效果。所以这个艺术家我是重点推荐的。

另外还有一位艺术家是国内的网红艺术家，叫朱敬一。在疫情期间我对他进行了采访，他也做了创作，但是没有想到疫情后期他自己生病了，他生了一场大病。这个是我们都没有想到的，和疫情（新冠）没有关系，是他自己生了一场大病。但是因为这场大病，包括这次疫情，对他的整个人生，包括创作，也都起了很大的影响。所以我是觉得去年的这个疫情，这两位艺术家的情况是比较突出的。

另外，去年疫情中间也发生了一些事情，我可以讲一讲，有一些我们艺术的同行，可能因为身体的原因，也因为特殊的情况，离开了这个世界，（其中）也有我几个特别好的朋友，这个事情说起来也是非常得令人感伤。所以我觉得整个疫情让艺术家也好，和从事这些工作的工作人员也好，对这个世界，对各个方面都有了重新的认知和思考。

Nerissa: You have conducted a lot of interviews with both foreign and domestic artists, like the Italian artist Salvo Pastorello. Have you found any differences among those artists in different regions during the pandemic, such as the difference of their artworks or their creative mindset, especially the differences between those Artists from Europe and from China?

SU: You have asked a great question.  All the interviewed Artists who are from countries outside China had visited China before. They said they had a great affection for China and really wanted to visit China again soon.  They were very when I interviewed them, and they told me that it reminded them that they still had friends in China who were taking care of them.  This is the first point. Another point is that they were happy to have the chance to express themselves and talk about their art.

袁：是的，我们也注意到您不仅访谈了中国的艺术家，然后也访谈了一些外国的艺术家，比如说意大利的沙沃·帕斯特雷洛（Salvo Pastorello）。我想请问一下您，他们在疫情期间的创作的作品以及他们对疫情的一种心态与中国的艺术家有什么区别呢？

苏：你这个话题挺好的，因为是这样的，我采访的几个（外国）艺术家都是来过中国的，他们对中国有很深厚的感情，然后他们特别渴望回到中国（笑），特别想回来。当我对他们做采访的时候，他们特别开心，就是感觉到中国的朋友还在关心他们，这是一个（方面），另外一方面他们觉得通过疫情他们也能够有一个发声的平台，这让他们也是开心的。但实际上我又感觉国外这几位我访谈的艺术家要比国内艺术家的情绪要糟糕得很多，他们的这个情绪比国内艺术家悲观。为什么呢？因为国内在4、5月份以后就基本上都开始恢复了，无论是交通、交流、工作、生活都逐渐地恢复，但是国外还不是那么稳定。而且这几位艺术家可能原来也是在中国待过，所以他们对中国有感情，但现在又回不来，然后在中国、在国外的一些展览计划都被打乱。所以我能感受到，第一，他们非常渴望能够回到正常生活和创作的轨道；第二，就是这次的疫情对他们的创作是有打击的，整个创作热情我感觉到是有所下降，因为不能和人去交流了。

Nerissa: Since we are here, I would like to know whether you have noticed the different policies for artists adopted in different countries during the pandemic?

SU: As far as I know, some those artists in America, France and Germany have already got some state support but there are still people in other countries who have not received any yet. For instance, the Italian artist Pastorello, he said that “The Government doesn’t care about us.”, and “I didn’t get support”.

袁：那我想请问一下，因为中外的政府是对艺术家有采取不同的政策，您对这些方面有了解过吗？

苏：这个话题有所了解，据我了解，当然不是很精准，我知道在美国的艺术家，在法国的艺术家，在德国的艺术家，好像这几个国家的艺术家都拿到了一些补贴。但是好像有些国家（的艺术家）就没拿到，比如我采访的那个艺术家，帕斯特雷沃，意大利的艺术家，他说“政府不关心我们”（笑），“我没拿到补贴”，可能各个国家的政策不一样。

Nerissa: Then I would like to ask about your thoughts on the recovery of the artworld.  In your three articles of “Post-Pandemic2020—New Fields”, you have focused on the post-pandemic development of some rural regions in China.   With this in mind, we would like to ask you to discuss the future development of the art market?

SU: I prefer to focus this on China which I am more familiar with. The art market in China has undergone tremendous changes in the past few years with several distinctive features. The first one is that as a result of the rapid development of the Internet, more people have joined the arts industry, which has created more possibilities for the spread of information about art to take place a lot faster.  This is especially the case in China’s first-tier cities. Similarly, we found more information about exhibitions or news all over the world.

The second aspect is, in China, Art is becoming more and more trans-industry and inter-disciplinary. Today in China, there are different exhibitions held not only in the museums or galleries but also in some public commercial spaces, such as shopping centres and plazas which is a characteristic feature of the spread of exhibitions in China.

The third aspect is that Art in China today is more “down-to-earth”. Art does not just appear in galleries, it has gone into our daily lives, appearing in streets and communities, even rural areas. Although, I have to say, that Japan is best at moving Art into the countryside—like the “Echigo-Tsumari Art Field” held every three years.  However, many villages that have their own features are also integrating Art with their distinctive cultures to achieve rural revitalisation. This is also a trend now in China. Now we’re in a digital era, this digital tendency is promoting not just the development of digital and multimedia art but also the cohesive collaboration of Art and Technology.

Meanwhile, the digital continues to influence the art world of the future. The “poping art” (the artistic style popular with the young people) raised by young artists is a major direction of digitisation.  This phenomenon is controversial.  My own position is that it is a positive development, while some art practitioners do not think so as they have traditional perspectives, and they hold dismissive attitudes toward its impact on the art market.

袁：是的，国家政策对艺术家的收入来源其实是有一定影响的，这方面我们也是有感受到。然后我们就想请问一下您对于艺术经济以后复苏（情况）的看法，因为我们有注意到在《2020后疫情时代——新田野》的三篇文章当中，您有聚焦到中国疫情后乡村的一些发展，我们想请问一下您对（整个）艺术（行业）以后的发展有什么看法？

苏：我觉得国内这几年，我不说全世界，我就说中国，中国这几年整个的艺术市场的变化巨大，有几个鲜明的特征。第一个，因为互联网和移动互联网让更多的人加入到了艺术的这个行业，也让更多的艺术类的资讯和信息，尤其在国内的一线城市，得到了非常快速和好的普及，我们可以看到很多国际的展览，国际的艺术资讯，这是一方面。第二个方面就是在国内，艺术越来越破圈和跨界，（这种现象）特别得明显，这个是中国的特色。今天在中国，不仅在美术馆和画廊可以看到展览，同时你会在各个商场，以及很多的公共空间看到展览，尤其是商业的公共空间、商业中心，有很多的展览，这个是国外也没有的，这是中国的一个特色。第三点就是艺术正在降维，艺术不仅仅是在美术馆，它走进了公共空间，走进了商业中心，走进了日常的生活，走进了街区、社区，甚至还走进了乡村。当然了，艺术走进乡村做得最好的可能是日本，（比如）“越后妻有大地艺术祭”，但是现在随着国内的乡村振兴，很多有特色的乡村也在让艺术和文创，和乡村振兴融合，很多艺术家都到乡村去创作，所以这个（特征）也是特别明显的。第四点我是觉得因为数字化时代，尤其最近（的）数字艺术、多媒体艺术，艺术和科技的融合在未来对国内的艺术发展也有极大的影响，而在这其中，同时还有年轻人的潮流艺术也是国内现在的一个主要方向。所以这是我目前（在）大框架（下）简单地讲讲我个人的想法，总体我觉得是乐观的，但是很多传统的艺术工作者对艺术市场（的态度）是不乐观的。

Nerissa: What do you think could be the negative aspects?

SU: Their lacking optimism reflects various aspects.  As I’ve said before, the domestic art market is experiencing a rapid change in the economy, technology and culture.  I would call this a kind of “iteration”.  During this “iteration”, it is unavoidable that those arts-practitioners holding a conservative view that they cannot keep up with the times. For instance, there are lots of young artists who use social media platforms to post their artworks, such as WeChat, Facebook or Instagram, but those traditional artists won’t do that. What’s more, there is an increasing number of artists born in the 1990s, who have been abroad studying art and come back to China to work as arts practitioners.

I was always joking that the art market was like a piece of cheese.  Previously there were few people sharing the cheese but now there probably thousands of people, which is tenfold number of before, as a result, the competition inside must be much more intense.

袁：他们的不乐观主要是体现在哪里？

苏：他们的不乐观体现在几个方面，因为这几年，我前面也说了，国内整个的艺术市场，包括经济、文化各个方面变化特别大，这个叫迭代吧，迭代得特别快，而在这种迭代特别快的过程之中，很多的传统思维，很多（艺术家）还是抱有着原有的那种对艺术理解的传统思维的那些创作者会跟不上，会适应不了。比如说现在很多年轻艺术家都要用社交（平台），微信，Facebook这些，那么对很多（有）传统思维的艺术家，可能他在这些思维上会跟不上。第二，因为现在有越来越多的90后的年轻艺术家，他们都在国外读过书，在国外受过艺术类的教育，回国以后从事艺术类的工作，这些人群现在是（在）扩大。所以我开玩笑说，这个艺术品市场，我们把它叫作这块奶酪，这块奶酪也不是很大（笑），原来可能就几百个人在吃这块奶酪，而今天，可能是几千个人，十倍以上的数量，那么这个竞争也加大了。再加上这几年，整个欧洲的经济市场也不是特别理想，因为在过去有一段时间，很多国外的收藏家购买中国艺术家的作品，这几年（数量）也都会下降，这个（情况）对传统思维的这些艺术工作者来说，（让）他们确实对（艺术）市场并不是那么乐观，这个也是正常的。

Nerissa: You have talked about an “iteration” caused by digitalisation, and we are currently using the digital technique to conduct activities like art exhibiting, so could you tell us what you think about the combination of Art and Technology?

SU: I see this combination as two-sided. It has both benefits and drawbacks. The benefit of it is that it could allow art to have more potential to be created using new methods, and its ability to spread art offers more possibilities for art to be accessed by more people.  In addition, it also makes it easier to engage art in our daily life, watching live events or broadcasts, for instance, this feature is enhanced with the application of 5G.

We now have more ways of interacting online and can access more exhibitions and art events, like the exhibition of “teamLab” in Japan was held in China in that way.  This is my point; the technology helps people access art and feel its charm in a more convenient way for people who are not on the site to engage the live events remotely.

However, the technologising of our world leads us to lack humanistic care.  When we’re going to some exhibitions of new-media art and multimedia art, our focus would be more about the visual stuffs rather than the resonance of humanity. This is also a significant phenomenon of our current situation.

Totally, the benefit is greater than the drawback.  According to the development of art history, from the classicism to the impressionism, the invention of the camera, computer, telephone or smartphone, step by step, every artistic revolution or campaign has an aspect of technological promotion. Therefore, if we take a long-term view of our situation, it seems technology will have a positive tendency, but it is inevitable that there would be drawbacks when we move forward and develop.

袁：您刚刚有提到，我们现在已经进入了一个互联网时代，所有的事物都在快速地迭代，我们也有运用互联网技术来进行我们的艺术策展之类的活动，想请问一下您对于科技与艺术结合的观点和看法。

苏：科技和艺术的结合我觉得是双刃剑，有利有弊。利就是它（科技）确实在推进艺术的创新，也让更多的人走近艺术、了解艺术，并且介入到艺术生活中，它起到了便利的作用，比如说我们现在很多展览的开幕可以用到直播的方式，我们不一定要去现场，就能够感受到现场（的氛围），甚至未来随着5G技术的提高，我们（可以）更加身临其境，通过多媒体的方式、交互的方式，更能够感触（艺术展览），包括像日本的teamLab这样的艺术在国内展出。这就是我觉得有利的（方面），科技帮助人们更深切地了解艺术，感受到艺术的魅力，方便了大家，比如不在一线城市的很多人，他/她可以通过远程去了解到这些东西。

但是不利的一面也会存在，当过于得科技化之后，大部分作品的人文关怀度少了很多。有时候你去看一些新媒体展、多媒体展，你会看得眼花缭乱，更多的是一种感官的刺激，而缺少了一些人文关怀，我觉得这个也是蛮凸显的一个情况。

总体来说它（艺术和科技的结合）是往好的方面发展的，因为我们从人类艺术史的发展（来看），从古典艺术到印象派，照相机的诞生，电脑的诞生，到手机，智能手机诞生，其实一步一步到现在，我们会发现，每一次艺术的运动，或者说大的革命、大的转变，其实背后都是因为技术在推动着它（艺术）。所以我是觉得，从长远的角度看是好事，它（科技）一定是起到了推动的作用，在这个迭代的过程之中，当然也有不如意的地方，这也是正常的。

Nerissa: That’s true, sometimes we miss the importance of humanistic care.

SU: Definitely.  Your question before tends to be more about the relation between art and technology, so I will say it is more positive if we look at this combination of art and technology as a whole.  It should be revolutionary, especially the advancing techniques of mobile Internet, artificial intelligence, they must be beneficial, but what we need to do is to take them as two-sided, to let ourselves be more objective to avoid losing our humanistic quality of art.

袁：是的，（有时候）就会忽略掉一些艺术（关怀）方面的东西。

苏：对，（因为）你提的问题是艺术和科技的关系，（所以）我觉得总体上，长远来说一定是好的，它一定是革命性的，尤其现在移动互联网、人工智能、大数据、传感器这些技术一定都是好的，但它事实上也是双刃剑，我们也要去更多地考虑，所有创造出来的作品是不是有一些人文的关怀，对人是有帮助的。

Nerissa: You’ve said that the artwork of Shuai WANG is a long-term plan, this reminds me of the CC plan. As a project themed around connecting and communicating, it does have the potential to keep ongoing. I would like to know whether you’ve thought about that?

SU: Definitely, it was intended to be a long-lasting program. Likewise, the Post-pandemic Era is part of long-term planning. It is expected to last about three years and we are looking forward to having an exhibition in 2023.  Here, we will perform all our works during these three years, such as CC Plan, our interviews with artists, artistic creation, etc.

袁：您刚刚有提到王帅老师的艺术计划是一个长期的运作，想问一下您，CC计划既然这是以沟通和连接为主题的一个计划，那您有考虑过将CC计划作为一个长期的发展项目吗?

苏：对的，这肯定是要作为一个长期的（项目），其实我们当时提出“后疫情时代”这个艺术计划的时候，我们的推文下面是有备注说这也是个长期计划，大概计划是（进行）三年，我们是希望到三年以后，我们会把过去三年这方面相关的工作，包括访谈，包括一些艺术家的创作，包括CC计划，我们最后希望三年以后会有一个落地的展览，也就是到2023年（实现）的样子。

Nerissa: That would be great!  You have said that the artists you interviewed had talked about the obstacles presented by living and working during pandemic, well, for my part, I know, that there are also artists in need of a platform to be shown to the public, this is a main factor of establishing R-Lab.  R-Lab is aiming to provide more exposure for the artworld to have more potential to develop, in the context of looking at the pandemic as a Pivot. We are aware that you have contacted the young artists group by curating an exhibition with some of them, called “Deep in the Life”. Therefore, with the young artists group in mind, could you talk about what they might find meaningful from our project of the “Pivot Culture”?

SU: Do you want to to talk about the “Deep in the Life” exhibition? Or?

袁：了解了。因为您刚刚也提到您之前采访的西方艺术家，他们可能会有生活上或者工作上的一些阻碍，而且根据我们的了解，也有一些艺术家们急需一个平台去展示他们的思考（和作品），这也是我们以“疫情下的转变”为这次项目主体的原因之一，我们想对一些刚刚踏入艺术领域的工作者提供思考方向和展示空间。我们有注意到您有一个“生活深处”的青年艺术家联展，所以您也曾经接触过青年艺术家这个群体。所以我们想请教您，您认为我们这一次“疫情转折文化”的主题可以为青年艺术家这个群体提供怎样的讨论点呢？

苏：你最后一个问题是说我们“生活深处”的那个展览吗，还是？

Nerissa: I mean could you take that experience as a way of scoping the young artists group and plot some ways they can benefit from our “Pivot Culture” program?

SU: Got you. I don’t know much about the specific situation of the UK, but you have mentioned that basically you are still holding exhibitions online.  On our situation in China, basically 70%-80% of exhibitions are able to be held physically, the young artists group in China now is very active, so with that in mind, I think it would be great for you to invite some of them to contribute to your program on “Pivot Culture”, because they could contribute to the post-pandemic view of art-making and rethinking the different situations, and different cultures could bring more possibilities for all of you.

In addition, from my point of view, the key thing you might to consider is: What kind of platform are you going to offer? How could they participate in it? And the last which may take the most amount of care – how are their artworks are going to be hosted on your platform?

袁：是我们有注意到您的这个展览为很多的青年艺术家提供了平台，所以我们想请教一下您，根据我们这一次“疫情转折点”的主题，（您）能为青年艺术家提供怎样的讨论点和思考方向？

苏：好的，我不知道现在英国那边的情况，当然你刚才也说了，现在很多都是通过线上的方式来做展览。那么国内现在的展览基本上恢复到之前的70~80%，都比较正常（运作）了，很多美术馆很多艺术空间都开了。所以明显可以看得出，从去年下半年到现在，国内的青年艺术家的创作，包括展览都已经很活跃了。我觉得你们提的“转折点”，包括整个概念非常好，可以让更多的国内的艺术家也可以参与到你们这个计划里面来，我觉得他们肯定是非常感兴趣参与的，你们能够提供一个合适的平台让他们一起来参与，我觉得这个是关键：提供什么样的平台，他们用什么样的方式参与，最后是他们也很关心的最终的呈现方式。

Nerissa: Could you give us some advice for us to promote our works or ways of hosting artworks?

SU: You could host and exhibit all your work in this digitally. We’ve launched a project that could cooperate with you guys. The people born after the 1990s are called Gen Z right? I think you’re the same. There is a group called  LineZ, its members are the students studying abroad, they are all Gen Z. They have their own platform which we are supporting, and they want to hold an exhibition in the latter part of this year, themed on Gen Z. This would be held both online and physically, so I think you could co-operate with them.

袁：您在呈现方式上面有什么可以提供（给）我们参考的意见，让我们学习一下?

苏：我觉得完全可以用线上的方式来呈现，正好我们今年还发起了一个计划，我觉得这样的计划可以跟你们做链接。我们现在的95后叫做Z时代，对吧？我想你们也是95后的Z时代。他们有一个Line Z的这样的一个小组，组织的成员基本上有在美国读书的，有在英国的，他们都是95后。他们现在有了这样的一个小组，然后他们有一个自己的平台，我们也在支持他们。可能在今年的下半年，他们想组织一个Z时代的艺术展，这个展是线上和线下都有（进行），我觉得他们也可以加入到你们这个计划，或者跟你们的计划进行合作。

Nerissa: That sounds interesting, we could talk about that after the interview. Well, thank you for accepting our invitation and talking with us, Bing SU, it’s so nice to have you here.

袁：好的，到时候可以商量一下合作细节（笑）。谢谢苏冰老师，我们今天的采访就结束了，谢谢您的配合。

Topics of Art in the Post-pandemic Era

As a result of this talk, R-Lab has prepared two interesting topics, please feel free to interact with us on our social media and share your thoughts on the following topics, or submit to our mailbox: r-lab.curating@outlook.com

经过本次访谈，R-Lab准备了两个有趣的话题，欢迎和我们的社交媒体互动并交流你对于这两个话题的想法，或者投稿至我们的邮箱：r-lab.curating@outlook.com

Artistic Healing

In the interview, Bing mentions a female artist in Henan, China: Shuai WANG. She created a series of black and white illustrations during the pandemic which called “Stories of the Pandemic and the Lives of People”, and her hundreds of illustrations depicting feelings and the state of she and her friends during the pandemic, these artworks received a lot of attention. She also organised an art community called ‘Painting and Drawing’, in which hundreds of artists exchanged artistic creations and used art to comfort each other’s anxious feelings during the pandemic. Bing believes that this can be described as ‘art having a healing effect’.

• Share a work of art that you think has healed you and briefly explain why
• Share the experience of how art has healed you
• Share an artwork/act that you have created that has healed you/others

艺术治愈

在访谈中，苏冰提到了中国河南一位女性艺术家：王帅。她在疫情期间创作了一个黑白插画系列，叫作“疫情故事和众生相”，她通过这几百张插画描绘了疫情期间她和身边朋友的感受和状态，受到了广泛关注。同时她还在疫情期间组织了一个叫作“画画那点事”的艺术社群，与几百位艺术家在其中交流艺术创作，用艺术安慰彼此在疫情下焦虑的心情。苏冰认为这可以说是“艺术起到了治愈的效果”。

• 分享你认为治愈过你的艺术作品，并简单谈谈理由。
• 分享艺术治愈你的经历
• 分享你创作过的治愈自己/他人的艺术作品/行为

Humanism in Art

In the interview, Bing answers our question about the relationship between technology and art. He believes that in the long run, it is good for technology to drive the development of art, because “every movement, or big revolution, or big transformation in art is actually driven by technology”, but he also believes that this “double-edged sword” also has a downside, that is, when art becomes too technological, it may simply pursue sensory stimulation and lack humanistic care.

• Share a work that you think shows a humanistic approach to art, and briefly explain why
• Can art with technology bring humanism to the table?
• Where do you think humanism in art can be found? From the actual work? From the connotations conveyed? Or from the whole artistic atmosphere?

艺术的人文关怀

在访谈中，苏冰回答了我们关于“科技与艺术关系”的问题，他认为从长远来看，科技推动艺术发展是好事，因为“每一次艺术的运动，或者说大的革命、大的转变，其实背后都是因为技术推动着”，但同时他也认为这把“双刃剑”也有弊端，那就是艺术过于科技化后，可能会单纯追求感官刺激，而缺少了人文关怀。

• 分享你认为呈现过艺术人文关怀的作品，并简单谈谈理由。
• 科技下的艺术能否带来人文关怀？
• 你认为的艺术人文关怀可以体现在哪里？体现在实际作品？体现在作品传达的内涵？还是整体的艺术氛围？

Staff

Host: Nerissa YUAN
Contact Person: Ifance FAN, Christy YANG
Planner: Christy YANG
Text: Christy YANG, Ifance FAN
Translator: Jiaqi GAO, Christy YANG
Proofreading: Calum BAIRD

Cheng Zuo 左程

Biography

Cheng ZUO, an artist mainly focus on oil painting. He is a member of Henan Artists Association and director of Oil Painting Research Association. He has repeatedly won national oil painting awards.

左程，油画艺术家，河南省美术家协会会员，油画研究会理事，曾屡次获得全国性的有关造型的艺术奖项。

Interview

Jackie GAO: In this talk, we left out the identities of teachers and students. Taking the pandemic as the central topic, we have made a subjective interpretation from the perspective of the artist. Before the conversation started, I prepared a few topics in advance to facilitate the development of the topic:

Art creation transformation, the exploration of the artist’s self-positioning, the profound experience during the period, the trend of Art turning to online.

These topics have been already informed to Mr. Cheng ZUO in advance, so the following dialogues were all naturally occurred around these topics.

这次采访我们撇去了老师和学生的身份，以疫情为中心话题，从艺术家的视角进行主观解读，我事先准备好了一下几个话题以便于话题的展开：

艺术创作的转变、艺术家自我定位探讨、期间的深刻经历、艺术转向线上的趋势。

这些话题已被提前告知于左程老师，故一下对话均是围绕这些话题的自然发生内容。

The names would be abbreviated as “Jackie” (Jackie GAO), and “ZUO” (Mr. Cheng ZUO)

(之后姓名分别写为“高嘉齐”、“左程”)

ZUO: Okay, let’s start with the first question, the impact of the pandemic on my life and art creation. In fact, the pandemic hasn’t affected my life that much. Art creation is a very private thing to me, so I usually stay in the studio alone, regardless of the outbreak. However, some things during this period, such as seeing people wear masks, the temperature checks before entering public places, etc had an impact. These things always reminded me of its cruelty, that is, facing the nature of it, like these sudden public health incidents, human beings are really fragile and insignificant in the grand scheme of things.

左程：好，那就从先从第一个问题开始吧，疫情的对我的影响和其导致的艺术创作上的变化。其实疫情对我生活本身的影响并不大，艺术创作对于我本身就是比较私密的，平时我也基本一个人待在工作室里，无关于疫情。但是在这期间的一些现象，比如每天面对的都是带着口罩的人，在进入公共场所之前需要测量体温等等，这些现象的出现，总会时刻提醒我疫情的残酷，即在大自然面前，如这种突发的公共卫生事件，人类的真的十分脆弱渺小。

Regarding the extraordinary events, it was not only the pandemic that has touched me the most, because, during the SARS period (China once suffered from SARS which was a serious infectious disease in 2003), I was in Beijing at the time, so as a result, I already had experience of facing a sudden emergency. What the pandemic reminded me of is when, a few years ago, I was in Côte d’Ivoire, Africa, there was a military coup d’état, so that we could suddenly hear the gunshots or see the riots in the streets. Every night we dared not even turn on the lights, and then we could see orange-red in the sky, anti-aircraft guns, and the streets were full of light and heavy weapons such as machine guns. All the experiences mentioned above have similarly inspired me, making me feel there it is only a moment between life and death.

关于印象深刻的事件和启发，其实使我感触最深的不只疫情，因为非典时期，我当时人在北京，其实已经有相关面临突发的紧急状况的经验了。同时还有几年前，我在非洲科特迪瓦的时候，当地发动了军事政变，以至于大街上总会突然听到枪声或者出现暴乱。每到晚上灯都不敢开，然后就会看见天空中橘红色的，高射炮什么的，街上也都是机枪等等的轻重型武器。上述提到的所有经历对我都有类似的启发，让我觉得是生与死之间只是一瞬间的事。

This kind of experience would actually become deeper and more painful for an artist, I would think about what is the value of our lives? Because after a lot of incidents, I felt that our human lives are short. The outbreak of the pandemic has once again stimulated these thoughts of the position of people, including political systems, human rights, etc., and of course the relationship between human being and nature. In fact, in the form of painting, installation, or video, they were all have reflected on social media taking the perspective of art for a long time. Such as what kind of position human beings had in social activities, what role they played, etc. Since there are countless such works, I might not give specific examples.

这种经历其实对于一个艺术家来说，会变得更深刻更痛彻，我会思考人的生命到底其价值在哪里？因为在好多事件发生后，我会觉得人命在其中简直如草芥一般。疫情的爆发再次激起了我对人的定位的思考，包括政治体制，人权等等，当然还有人和自然之间的关系，其实不管是绘画也好，装置也好，影像也好，都从很早以前开始了以艺术为视角的反思，比如人类在社会活动中处于什么样的地位，具有什么样的作用等等，由于这种作品不计其数，我就不在此一一举例了。

Jackie: Right, everyone was still operating on the basis that human beings are at the centre of the universe before the pandemic but after the outbreak, the focus of our thoughts might have shifted, that is, in the future, humans would view things more from the perspective of post-humanism, which means taking the view of all things as equal. This might be one of the inspirations that we could have obtained during this period.

高嘉齐：对，之前大家还比较推崇以人类为世界中心的观点，但是疫情爆发之后，会推动人类思想重心的偏移，即以后人类的视角，从万物平等的角度，看待事物，这也是我们苦中作乐所能获得的启发之一。

ZUO: I agree with your point that all things are equal, all beings are equal. All beings are not only humans, but everything in the world. Although we are at the top of the so-called “food chain”, we must not blindly exploit this and take too much from other beings, we should always be grateful, and we can’t get something for nothing.

The virus is merciless, it treats everyone equally, regardless of whether they are rich or poor. Therefore, I have always hoped that everyone could understand a point, that is, human beings are a community with a shared future on earth, and our destinies are connected together, so no matter what kind of discrimination, it should be cast aside.

左程：对你说这个特别好，万物平等，众生平等，众生就不只人类，而是世间的一切。我们虽然站在所谓的食物链的顶端，但是我们不能对其他事物进行一味地剥削和索取，要常怀感恩之心，并且不可不劳而获。疫情是不留情面的，它一视同仁，勿论贫富高低。所以我一直非常希望大家可以去理解一个观点，即人类是地球上的命运共同体，我们的命运是连接在一起的，故无论什么样的歧视，均是该被唾弃的。

Jackie: Exactly! To be honest, it is very hard for us to achieve the equality of all beings like post-human view. First of all, let alone all the other things that exist on earth, there are still inequalities around race, gender, culture, religion, etc. among us, which we need to overcome.

高嘉齐：非常赞同，其实后人类这样一个众生平等的角度，我们很难去做到。首先不说对于地球上存在的其他事物，我们本身之间就会存在一些种族歧视，性别歧视，文化歧视，地域歧视等等，这也是我们需要去克服的。

ZUO: Yesterday my son talked to me about watching a movie, called the darkness of human nature or something. And I told him that in places where the sun couldn’t shine on, that was, dark places. Where we can’t see, there is actually a lot of little things and creatures still living, which are also worthy of our serious consideration. I watched a documentary before. It was about the multitude of mice on the earth today than we humans but, we couldn’t see them because they are all underground, in dark places. So I suddenly understood a truth, that was when you are standing in the sunshine, in fact, there are many other things that happen in many places you can’t see. This is a deep but helpless realisation. For example, during the pandemic, many experts in the medical field were treating patients day and night, but there were still a large number of people who couldn’t be treated every day. We have witnessed the development of science and technology to this advanced state, and sometimes we are still unable to cope. This always makes me aware of the struggles of mankind. Therefore, as an artist, I always want to record these things. If possible in the future, use some form of images or videos, audio, etc., to leave some hints and warnings for future generations.

左程：昨天我儿子跟我聊，说看了一个电影，人性的黑暗什么的。我就告诉他，在阳光照不到的地方，也就是黑暗的地方，我们看不到的地方，其实有好多黑暗丑陋的东西也在生存着，这也是十分严重的。之前我看了一个纪录片，讲述的是类似于现在地球上老鼠的数量咱们人类的数倍？但是我们看不到，因为它们都是在地下，在黑暗的地方。所以我就突然想明白一个道理，就是当你站在阳光下的时候，其实在很多你看不到的地方，都会发生好多其他事情。这是一个痛彻心扉，但是无可奈何的问题。比如这次疫情，医学界的好多专家都不分昼夜地在救治病人，但是每天依旧还有大量的人无法被救治，我们眼睁睁的目睹科技发展到现在这种状态，有时却是无力回天，这总会让我察觉到人的渺小。所以作为艺术家总是想把这些东西给记录下来，想将来有可能的话，通过一些图像或者视频、音频等等，给后代留下一些提示和警告吧。

At the same time, the pandemic has caused many exhibitions and art activities to move online. This is an invisible opportunity and a test for the emerging digital media and so on. Because many exhibitions, museums, art galleries, etc., now have online exhibition halls, this allows us to browse a lot of works without leaving home, which is a good thing in itself. However, physical exhibitions would actually be more real, because we could go to all-round viewings of the artwork. The feeling is completely different when you are standing in front of an object versus looking through an electronic screen. What’s more, through the pandemic, we are finding that the Internet brings us more convenience, and many exhibitions can rely on the Internet for wider publicity. This is a positive aspect of pandemic life.

同时，疫情导致很多展览和艺术活动都变成线上的形式，这无形中对于现在新兴的数字媒体等等也是一次机会，也是一个考验。因为好多展览，博物馆和艺术馆等等，现在都有了网上展厅，这使我们足不出户就可以浏览好多作品，这本身是好事。但是线下其实会更真实，因为我们可以去全方位观赏一个艺术作品，站在本体面前和你通过电子屏幕去看，感受是完全不同的。同时，通过疫情的推动，我们会发现网络会带来更多的便利，很多展览完全可以依托互联网进行更广泛的宣传。从这个角度来讲，这是相对积极的。

Jackie: Agreed, to give a very simple example. Perhaps it is because of the spread of the Mona Lisa‘s image that lead more people want to go to the Louvre to see the physical work. This can indirectly prove that the artwork cannot be replaced but, using new media as a means could make it spread farther, including the values and concepts of the work itself, and even the story of the work, and so on.

高嘉齐：是的，举个很简单的例子，或许就是因为蒙娜丽莎的照片的传播，才导致更多人想去卢浮宫，看一看庐山真面目。这可以间接证明本体无法被替代，但以新媒体为手段却可以让传播的更远，包括作品本身的价值观和观念，甚至于作品的故事等等。

I have also thought about such a problem before, that is, whether physical exhibitions would turn to be totally online. However, to a certain extent, much of art’s power is just derived from its authenticity in the real world, which helps its resonate with the audience, or the visual experience of the viewer when witnessing its physical form. So I think that once we have the opportunity, we will return to the physical world, because the charm of Art itself comes more from the sensory experience it brings to people.

我之前也思考过这样一个问题，就是线下展览是否会被线上取代。但是某种程度上，其实艺术很多的力量恰恰来源于它在现实世界中具有的真实性，就是所谓跟观众产生的共鸣，或者是观者在亲眼目睹其实体形制的视觉经历。所以我认为，我们一旦有机会还是会回归线下，因为艺术它本身很大的程度的魅力，就是来于带给人们的感官体验。

ZUO: I agree. Offline and online can definitely coexist, so that artworks can be spread more widely and seen by more people which is quite good. From this point of view, online sharing of work is faster but, offline exhibitions are also not replaceable. For example, when we’re facing the David sculpture or other Michelangelo’s works, when we’re looking at figurative three-dimensional artworks, and even some sculptures can be touched, we can almost feel its soul inside. The texture, including the folds of clothes, etc., these are the things that can’t be experienced when we view the image online. The image is flat, and when we’re standing in front of the work in reality, the experience it brings to us is beyond description.

左程：对，这个观点咱们是一致的。线下和线上肯定会并存，让艺术作品能传播的更广泛，并且让更多人能看到固然是好的，以此来看，线上速度相对更快，但是线下的展览也是不可被取代的。比如，当我们面对大卫的雕塑或者米开朗基罗的作品时，当我们看到具象立体的艺术品，甚至有些雕塑都可以被触到的时候，我们是能感受到它的灵魂的。那种雕刻的纹理感，包括他那衣服的褶皱等等，是在面对图像所不能体会的。图像是平面的，而当我们真实地站在作品面前的时候，其所带给我们的震撼力是无以复加的。

Actually, artists firstly come to be human, he might have other positions of his own, such as a teacher, or a postman, etc. I don’t think this prevents him from becoming an artist. Artist is not just a tag. Like, who doesn’t define himself/herself as an artist, but he/she has some conscious artistic activities, then I might think he/she as an artist. In my process of creating, I always believe that technique as a part of painting is not the soul of Art. Because no matter what tools and materials are used, even drawing on the ground with a stone, to a certain extent, it is to convey something with technique. So the most important thing is thoughts which are inspired by some social activity.

其实现在很多的艺术家，他首先要是人，他有自己的其他定位，比如教师，或者邮差等等，我觉得这都无法妨碍他去作为一个艺术家。真正的艺术家，不是名义上的，比如谁给他的定位是艺术家，而是他自己有一些自觉的艺术活动，我认为他就可以成为一个艺术家。在我的这个创作过程中，我一直认为，技巧作为绘画的一部分，不是灵魂。因为不管用什么工具和材料，甚至是拿一个土块儿在地上画，在某种程度上都是在以技巧去传达一些东西。所以最关键的在于思想。比如从社会活动中得到的启发。

In fact, this pandemic has also given me a lot of inspiration. Although people are getting more and more alienated, this very difficult time still could reflect our unity. For example, when the pandemic in Wuhan (the first city suffered form pandemic in China) was severe, because everyone was in isolation, they were very depressed, and as a result they would sing the national anthem or some nursery rhyme together through the window on to the street. And hearing from my students in Italy, when they were quarantined, they held small community concerts at home coordinated between neighbors, like someone would play the violin, someone was in charge of other things, and so on. These things made me suddenly aware of the beautiful and kind side of the human nature, which might not be fully highlighted in normal times. And in this crisis of the pandemic, the brilliance of these human qualities l was even more remarkable, and it’s really touching.

其实这次疫情也给了我很多启发，就是虽然人和人之间越来越疏离了，但是这个很艰难的时刻又能体现出我们的团结。比如说在武汉疫情严重的时候，因为大家都在隔离，本身心情都很低落，结果他们就会隔着窗户，一起唱国歌儿。在意大利隔离的时候，他们在上面就举行小型的社区的音乐会，邻里之间协调，谁拉小提琴，谁负责其他等等。这些现象能让你突然察觉到人性中的美好，善良的一面，这些或许无法在正常时期被充分的凸显。并且在疫情这种危难之际，这些人性的光辉更耀眼，更让人潸然泪下。

Jackie: Yes, after the outbreak, there were riots in many parts of the world and so on. This reflected the other side of human nature, but simultaneously it would also strengthen the beauty of human nature to a greater extent, and will also inspire many kind human qualities. This depends on which aspect we look at.

高嘉齐：对是的，疫情爆发后，很多地区出现暴乱等等，这体现了人性之恶，但同时也会更大程度上把人性的光亮加强，也会激发很多人性之善，这或许在于我们从哪一个方面看吧。

Also, regarding what you said before, when we touch those sculptures, we can feel it has a soul. This reminds me of the concept of the “distributed personhood” (an anthropology concept raised by Alfred Gell), which is an artwork placed there, when everyone is looking at it and thinking, whether it is about dissent or compliment, they’re actually taking part in the personality of this artwork. It is equivalent to taking a seed from each person from the work, and then the seed will bloom in the process of thinking it through. This is based on each person has different ideas and varied personal experiences, but in fact a certain part of the thoughts involved in this work has been absorbed by them.

还有，关于之前你提到的，触碰到那些雕塑的时候，我们会感觉到它是有灵魂的。这让我想到一个了一个分裂式人格的概念，就是一个艺术作品，当它被放在那里，每个人看到它并产生思考的时候，无论是异议或是赞美，其实他们都拿走了一部分这个作品的人格。等于说是从每个人从作品中拿走了一粒种子，然后种子会在思考的过程中开花，这基于每个人想法不同，个人经历是不同，但是其实这个作品的某一部分思考是被他们吸收了的。

ZUO: For me, no matter when the pandemic subsides, its impact will be with us for our the rest of our lives. And maybe after it is completely over, when we look back, it would be like the scars left by a fall during childhood. It is always with you, and also reminds you of a certain period of time. From this perspective, it seems to have some artistry that we will pass on.

左程：对我觉得无论疫情何时结束，它的影响都会伴随我们终生，只不过在它彻底结束后，我们回过头去时再看，它就会像我们小时候摔倒留下的疤痕一样，伴随着你，也时刻在提醒着你某一段时光，从这个角度看，它好像又带有了一些我们赋予的艺术性。

As I’m talking to you in my studio now, and I can see my original gouache sketch when I look up. I remember that many people have asked, sometimes the people on it are in the wasteland, sometimes in the snow, and sometimes there are people in the jungle. Shadows flicker and appear, what is the meaning of this symbolic thing? In fact, I really painted myself, just like I am many different actors. He was willing to try different movies and different roles. I also turned myself into a character that appeared in the picture, and imagined him appearing in various situations. I want to be in places I can’t go, such as volcanoes, flying saucers and so on.

我现在在画室跟你谈着这些，抬头就可以看到我原来画的水粉的小稿，就想起好多人都问说，上面的人有时在荒原，有时候在雪地，有时候丛林中间有人影忽隐忽现，这种所谓符号性的东西是何用意？其实画的真的就是我自己，就像好多演员，他愿意尝试不同的电影，不同的角色，我也把我幻化成了就画面中出现的人物，幻想他出现在各种各样的情境中。一些去不到的地方，比如火山，飞碟等等这些天马行空的东西，我都想置身其中。

Honestly, the happiness of artists lies in here. During the lockdown, I can integrate myself into my works like an actor, and I could be in a variety of environments, such as spaces that we couldn’t go to, this is interesting. Just like we are reading a novel, 1,000 people have 1,000 Hamlets in their minds. As a result, I hope I could turn thousands of small people into paintings, going to different places and trying different lives instead of only having a single life track stuck in reality.

疫情环境下，其实艺术家幸福的地方就在于此，可以跟演员一样，把自己融入到作品里，并且可以是各种各样的环境，比如自己想去去不到的四维空间什么的，都十分有趣。就像我们在看小说一样，1000个人心目中有1000个哈姆雷特，我就希望我可以幻化为画面上成千上万个小人儿，去往不同的地方，尝试不同的生活，而不是同现实中一样，我们每个人只能拥有的单一生命轨迹。

Jackie: Your paintings are like diaries. When I was looking at them, I could feel that they are created by the same person, but it seemed that his daily mood was different according to his varied experiences. These paintings could express a lot of your own potential thoughts or the mood of the day unconsciously. I think this is particularly interesting.

高嘉齐：你画的那些小人，在我看来就像日记一样，能感觉到是一个作者，但是好像每天的心情啊，和生活经历不尽相同。其中有些创造可能就是无意识的把很多自己的潜在想法或者是当天的心情，心境等等表达出来了，我觉得那个特别有意思。

ZUO: Therefore, this period also has given us many possibilities. Just like when you’re sick, after being sick, people may experience a lot of things in the depths of their soul that were not touched during the original healthy period. In this disastrous situation, we could only try our best to face life with this positive attitude.

左程：所以关于这个时期，包括咱们说的后疫情文化，后疫情人类等等，其实这一时期也给予了我们很多可能性。就像人生病一样，生病了以后人可能会体会到很多原先健康时期没有触及到的一些灵魂深处的东西。这种灾难性的情境下，我们只能尽量以这种积极的态度去面对生活。

As far as I am concerned, the pandemic has brought me both sadness and warmth. The emotion is like half sea and half flame, which is also same as our real lives. It would never be dull, there could always be ups and downs, tossing and turnings. In fact, this kind of life is relatively rich, too smooth or too bland would be too simple.

就我个人来说，疫情带给我的有悲伤也有温情，所以说在这种情感下，就像一半是海水，一半是火焰。它会让你觉得真正的人生就是这样，永远不会一直平淡，会有跌宕起伏啊，有辗转反侧，其实这种人生才是相对丰富的，太平淡了，太顺利了，反而会单一一些。

Jackie: Yes, I think half is seawater and half is flame. This description is particularly good. It seems that you are standing on the central axis, and you can see from both sides, but the situation and scene in front of you may change. For example, the seawater may wet your trousers, or the heat of the flame may blow your face. But in fact, in many cases, it is more about where we are willing to look. You may see the sea or see the fire, which is deeply depending on your visual angle. Various situations would arise, but only your mind would be the absolutely influential factor. Although we would also be changed by the situation’s many factors, our status would always depend on our subjective will.

高嘉齐：是的，我觉得一半是海水，一半是火焰，这个形容特别好。好像你站在中轴线上，两边都是可以眺望的，但是眼前的情况和情景可能会改变，比如说海水可能会沾湿你的裤脚，或者火焰的热气可能会扑面而来。但其实很多时候更在于我们愿意看向哪边，你可能看到海或者看到火，这取决于你的视觉角度。各种情况都会出现，但只有你自己才能成为绝对的影响因素。虽然我们也会被情形所改变，其中也会被很多要素影响，但这永远取决于我们的主观意志。

ZUO: Therefore, in some particularly peaceful times, the works of artists and writers would be relatively plain. However, facing this kind of big challenge, both artistic and literary works would be very powerful, because turbulence would also bring opportunities and bring new changes. Hence, as an artist, I think I should not be afraid of facing any challenges, even of natural or man-made disasters. If an artist has the sense of the social responsibility, he would truly reflect himself and society with his works, instead of commercializing art completely with a certain purpose. Completely commercial works could never directly hit people with power, and the shock brought by truly great art would never be replaced and imitated.

左程：所以往往在特别和平的年代里，艺术家作家的作品相对平淡一些。然而在这种大的变革下，不管是艺术作品还是文学作品的都会更有力量，因为动荡也会带来机遇，带来新的变革。所以对于艺术家来说，我觉得应该不怕面临任何挑战，甚至于天灾人祸。如果一个艺术家他具有一定的使命感，他会以作品真实的反映自己，反映社会，而不是把艺术完全商业化，或者抱有某种目的。完全商业化的作品是无法直击人心的，真正伟大的艺术带来的震撼是无法替代和被模仿的。

Jackie: Exactly, this involves the issue of the status quo of the artist, because if some artists do not commercialize their works, they might have no way of sustaining their own lives, so many artists would have a part-time or a side job. This reminds me of a problem, that is, artists have largely deviated from the field of career, and appear more as an identity, that is, taking art as their lifelong goal and pursuit. From the moment you recognize yourself as an artist, many of your perspectives would be changed. You would also stand in the position of an artist to observe your life and the surrounding world in an all-round way, and integrate art into your whole life. I also find that very interesting.

高嘉齐：对，这就涉及到艺术家现状的问题，因为很多艺术家如果不把作品商业化，是完全没有办法维持生活的，所以很多艺术家会有一个兼职或者是副业。这就让我联想到一个问题，就是艺术家很大程度上已经偏离出了职业的范畴，更多以一种身份出现，就是以艺术为自己的终身的一个目标或者追求。从自我认知为一个艺术家那一刻起，你很多的视角都会被改变，也会站在一个艺术家的位置去全方位地观察自己的生活和周边的世界，将艺术融入进生活的骨血，这是我觉得很有意思的。

ZUO: So I said an artist should come to be a person firstly, and real artists wouldn’t worry about their identity. If you could still use your artistic potential as you are in a normal living and working environment, this is admirable, due to you have to live a life firstly, I think these two were not contradicted with each other.

左程：所以我说艺术家，他首先是一个人，所以我说真正的艺术家，你不要纠结于身份，比如非要让别人给我贴个标签，我是个艺术家，如果在普通的生活工作环境下，你依旧能把你的艺术潜能发挥出来，这才是令人佩服的，因为你首先要活下去吧，我觉得这个不矛盾。

Jackie: Right, an artist seems to be in a lifelong pursuit. I think this is great. He has a perspective and a positioning, a lifelong aspiration, which is beyond the scope of many careers, and it’s closely related to life.

高嘉齐：对，艺术家好像是一种终身的诉求，我觉得这样很棒，他是一个视角一个定位，一个终生的诉求，超乎于很多职业的范畴，是与人生就是紧紧联系在一起的。

As when we were talking before, our identities were not particularly clear. It may be due to our teacher-student relationship or the chat environment. Our discussions were always mixed with many identities. However, today our conversation is completely about an interviewee and an interviewer, and we are developing around your identity as an artist. I think this becomes more interesting and gives me more in terms of the art of refining space.
This interview has benefited me a lot, thank you, teacher.

因为我们之前在谈话的时候，身份都不是特别的明确，可能碍于师生关系或者是聊天环境什么的，我们的讨论总是混杂着很多身份。但是今天我们是完全以一个被采访者和一个采访人的身份进行了对话，并且围绕着你作为艺术家的这个身份进行展开，我觉得这样就变得更有意思，可以在艺术方面给我以更多的提炼空间。

这次采访使我受益良多，谢谢老师。

Cheng Zuo is a great mentor and my helpful friend. He has not only brought me artistic enlightenment but also helped me to resolve the confusion and difficulties in my life. Everyone has a “mentor” in your life. He/she may be your friend, you parents or families, they could always clarify the difficulties for you and resolve your confusion.
This period has brought us a lot of negativity and anxiety. Therefore, maybe it’s time for you to have in-depth communication with your mentor based on art, in order to find yourself a bright light and dispel the haze.

左老师是我的良师益友，他不仅带给我以艺术的启迪，同时也会帮我排解人生的迷惑和困顿，每个人的生活中都会有一名“良师”，他可能是你的朋友，你的父母，他们总为你拨开云雾，答疑解惑。

这一时期为我们带来了不少的困惑与迷茫，不如以艺术为基点，和你的良师进行一次深度沟通，以寻一盏明灯，散一片阴霾。

Please share your experience of conversation on the comment section below! We’d like to hear from you!

请在下方评论区域分享你的感受和思考！我们乐意与你分享艺术之光！

Staff

Host: Jiaqi GAO
Contact Person: Jiaqi GAO
Planner: Jiaqi GAO
Text: Jiaqi GAO
Translator: Jiaqi GAO
Proofreading: Calum BAIRD, Rebecca TUTTHILL

Annie COOK

The workshop will take place on the 29th of April at 12:00 UK / 19:00 China. Sign up to the Eventbrite link to attend!

工作坊将在4月29日英国12:00，中国19:00上线，请登录Eventbrite 预约参加！

The live workshop will be hosted on Zoom. To join us, you will need to follow the link and sign in with the passcode for added security.

About Workshop