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Tracing Back

Natalia GONZÁLEZ MARTÍN

“During the pandemic, I was able to focus on my own research, which resulted in a new dimension to the painting series I am now working on.”

“在疫情期间,我得以机会全神贯注于个人的学术研究,这使我从范例中找到了一个从未出现的全新维度。”

Natalia GONZÁLEZ MARTÍN
Waiting, 21x30cm, Oil on board, 2021
Natalia GONZÁLEZ MARTÍN
Fig, 30x42cm, Oil on board, 2021
Natalia GONZÁLEZ MARTÍN
Mantilla, 30x42cm, Oil on board, 2021

Biography

Natalia is a Spanish artist focusing on adapting traditional techniques and formats from icon paintings. Through this, she explores the traces we have been left with from traditions that have prevailed over mainland Europe for centuries and their capacity to continue to exist through time. She is also the co-director of Subsidiary Projects, an artist-led space to promote the work of emerging artists.

Natalia 作为一位西班牙艺术家,其主要关注在标志性绘画作品中体现出的,对于经典绘画技法与构图范式的借鉴意义。此外,她试图以上述课题为手段,对曾于欧洲大陆盛行数个世纪的传统范式发展轨迹进行探索,并试图剖析出其能历经数百年的作用内核。同时,她还在位于伦敦,以“打造一个优化艺术家作品,并由艺术家主导的空间”为创立意图的Subsidiary Projects画廊担任联合主管。

Interview

The names would be abbreviated as “Isabel” (Isabel DIERINGER) and “Natalia” (Natalia GONZÁLEZ MARTÍN).

(之后姓名分别写为“Isabel”、“Natalia”)

Isabel: How did you organise your work and life during the pandemic?

Natalia: With the lockdown measures, many artists weren’t able to access their studios, which has translated into adapting our domestic spaces and consequently our practice, to create. In my case, the main difference is in the scale of the work, which has been reduced considerably to fit in my home studio.

Isabel:疫情期间,你是如何安排你的工作和生活的?

Natalia:采取锁定措施后,作为艺术家我们无法进入工作室,所以我们只能去适应在家创作。就我个人而言,主要的区别在于我作品的规模,为了适合在家创作,我的作品被大规模缩小了。

 

Isabel: What is different from before the pandemic?

Natalia: Before we could discuss our work and other artists’ IRL, now studio visits have been reduced to zoom calls which isn’t the best tool for the appreciation of some mediums. That dialogue has been lost in some ways but enhanced in others. Instead of discussing the work itself, I find myself sharing tips or advice with other artists that I haven’t even meet in person yet – however, I am eager to be able to see art in person again and talk about more formal elements.

Isabel:这与疫情前前有什么不同?

Natalia:在讨论我们的作品和其他艺术家的真实情况之前,现在不同工作室之间的访问已经被压缩成线上语音,这仅仅是一种权宜之计。我们交流的一些层面被削弱了,另一些却被加强了。同时,比起讨论作品本身,我们更多是与一些素未谋面的艺术家分享技巧或建议。所以,我十分渴望能够再次亲眼目睹他们的艺术品,并且与他们有一些更深度,更正式的交谈。

 

Isabel: What is the biggest change you have been through or found? In other words, what is your Covid-pivot?

Natalia: Isolation has brought a lot of introspection for everyone, now that my time wasn’t packed with different events or appointments constantly I have been able to focus a great part of my day on research, which has really given a new dimension to this new series I am working on.

Isabel:你经历或发现的最大变化是什么? 换句话说,你的转折点是什么?

Natalia:相信居家隔离为每个人都带来了不同的反思,现如今,我的生活不再总被日程安排充斥,我能够把我大部分的时间集中在我的研究上,这也确实为我正在筹划的一系列新的艺术项目提供了一个崭新的视角。

 

Isabel: What is your most proud creation since the pandemic started?

Natalia: For the past two years, I have been developing the same series of work, however, I am currently working on the development of a solo presentation and creating new pieces where all of these ideas meet.

Isabel:疫情爆发以来的创作中,你最喜欢的哪一幅作品?

Natalia:在过去的两年里,我一直在进行同个一系列的创作,然而,我目前正在筹划一个个人项目,并且我的所有想法都会在其中有所体现。

 

Isabel: When did you start this project/artwork?

Natalia: The works for this particular exhibition which will take place in September have been in the making since November 2020. I have been able to explore the ideas and subjects that I had been developing during the past years.

Isabel:你什么时候开始创作这一作品的?

Natalia:这个作品自2020年11月开始创作,并将在今年9月于展览上问世, 这一作品涵盖了我过去几年以来的探索和我一直在思考的想法和内容。

 

Isabel: What inspired you to embark on this project/start creating this artwork?

Natalia: I had created a solid trajectory of works that were all related to the same subjects, a solo exhibition of these was the most logical progression.

Isabel:是什么启发了你的创作?

Natalia:我早先创造了一个坚实的发展逻辑,使得所有的作品都从属于同一个框架,而展览是这一系列作品最合乎逻辑的展示方式。

 

Isabel: What does this artwork mean to you?

Natalia: It has been an exploration of Spain and its traditions. I have been visiting old photographs, stories, folk songs to develop these. During a time where I could not visit my family and my country, this series of work has been almost therapeutic.

Isabel:这件艺术品对你意味着什么?

Natalia:这是对西班牙及其传统的探索。 我一直在研究一些相关材料,如旧照片,故事,民歌以进行铺垫。疫情时期,由于我无法回到我的祖国,所以这些研究工作也是对我的一种慰藉。

 

Isabel: Has the pandemic had an impact on your work/work plan? (Was there any change in your thinking focus?)

Natalia: I have always balanced my practice with another job, but with the money, I was saving from not having a studio I decided to focus solely on my art career. This has been the best decision I could have taken as my work has evolved much quicker than it would have if I had had a part-time job. It is not easy to do this and in my case, I needed the world circumstances to change in order to take this step.

Isabel:疫情期间你的工作/工作计划有被影响吗? (你的创作重心有什么变化吗?)

Natalia:我一直试图平衡自己的创作与兼职,最近我停用了我的工作室,并决定只专注于我的艺术事业,这其实是我很早就能做出的抉择,因为我的工作发展得比我有一份兼职工作要快得多。但是想法和实践还是存在一定差距,但是对于我个人来讲,可能需要周围环境的推动去驱使我迈出这一步。

 

Isabel: If this applies, is there any funding for freelancers or artists in your city or in your country?

Natalia: The Arts Council has offered a lot of support for artists and art organisations during this time. Galleries, art magazines and other organisations have also been incredibly supportive by offering grants, free studio spaces or exhibiting opportunities.

Isabel:你的城市或你的国家是否有任何用于资助自由职业者或艺术家的困难基金?

Natalia:在此期间,艺术委员会为我们这些艺术家和艺术组织提供了大量支持。美术馆、艺术杂志和其他艺术组织也给予了极大的支持,比如提供相关资助、免费的工作室空间或展览机会。

 

Isabel: Have your feelings about art now changed from your first encounters with it, or rather before the pandemic? If so, how?

Natalia: The pandemic has allowed me to realise the importance of a strong online presence. Social media has been key to connect with galleries, artists and collectors from all over the world, which helps expand our networks.

Isabel:疫情这一时期是否改变了你先前对于艺术的认知?有哪些方面的变化?

Natalia:疫情的爆发使我认识到互联网存在的重要性。 社交媒体一直是连接来自世界各地的画廊、艺术家和收藏家的关键,这有助于扩大我们艺术的传播和影响范围。

 

Isabel: Do you think the arts will mostly remain/move online after the pandemic?

Natalia: I still believe it is important to experience art in person, some art mediums cannot be translated to an online format, however, some artists have evolved their practices to fit the digital realm, a very clear example of this are NFTs, and the hunger for innovative digital proposals is undeniable.

Isabel:你认为在疫情结束后,艺术还会持续转向线上吗?

Natalia:我仍然坚持亲身体验艺术的重要性,一些艺术媒介在现如今还不能很好地被转化为线上。但是,一些艺术家的艺术实践已经开始转向数字领域,这方面的一个非常明显的例子是NFTs,同时,世界对于数字化创新的渴望也是无法被否认的。

 

Isabel: How do you see the relationship between technology and art?

Natalia: This pandemic has definitely changed the way we approach art and technology, the differences between the two have become more blurry and I think this is a great opportunity towards a more 21st-century approach to art and its market.

Isabel:你如何看待科技与艺术的关系?

Natalia:这一时期确实改变了我们对待艺术和科技的方式,两者之间的差异变得更加模糊,我认为这或许是走向更当代化的艺术及艺术市场转型的一个契机。

Staff

Host: Isabel DIERINGER
Contact Person: Isabel DIERINGER
Planner: Isabel DIERINGER
Text: Isabel DIERINGER
Translator: Jiaqi GAO
Proofreading: Calum BAIRD

 

Decentralization

OCAT Shenzhen x OCT Art & Design Gallery OCAT深圳 x 华 · 美术馆 

“Decentralization” is a different attempt of this project from the past. “What’s Started and What’s Ended” Series 2020 Special Public Project provides an open and empathetic platform for the public to discuss four issues related to the epidemic in the “O₂ Online Chat.” “Design Notebook” used poster design techniques to record the five keywords raised from the conversation. “Collaborative Writing” guides two groups of writers to express their ideas through relay writing freely.

“去中心化”是这个项目与以往不同的尝试。“什么开始了,什么结束了”系列2020特别公共项目为公众提供了一个开放的、共情的平台,在“O2聊天室”就疫情相关的四个议题展开了探讨。随后的“设计记录簿”用海报设计的手法,记录下了从谈话中提出的5个关键词。“联合写作计划”通过接龙写作的规则,让两组写作者自由表达自己的想法。

From a macro perspective, the digital tendency of our world might be the most apparent turn involved in all walks of life, including public education. Therefore, R-Lab invited the members working in the same field of public education but from different popular institutions in China. They would like to share their Pivot-related thoughts from dimensions of individuals, project creators, and Art partitioners of the industry. This would include: the personal pivot as art practitioners, the context of the project, how to balance its publicity and professional, the relation between physical and digital, and suggestions for young people who aimed to engage in public education.

从宏观上看,向线上转化是疫情期间各行各业都最为明显的转变,公教也不例外。R-Lab请来了该项目的创作者,同时也是中国知名当代美术馆的公教部从业人员就个人、项目、行业这三个层面的话题及其转变分享了她们的见地。其中涉及到艺术从业人员的个人转变,该项目的创作背景故事,如何平衡公共教育中的公众性与专业性,线上与线下的关系,及给希望从事公教行业的青年的建议。

The posters from ‘Design Notebook’

OCAT Shenzhen x OCT Art & Design Gallery
管中窥豹, 刘钊, 2020
OCAT Shenzhen x OCT Art & Design Gallery
盲人摸象, 刘钊, 2020
OCAT Shenzhen x OCT Art & Design Gallery
另一只眼睛, INFUTURE未设计, 2020

We only exhibited a part of the project; the original public project link is here in Chinese.

“What’s Started and What’s Ended” Series 2020 Special Public Project

 

O₂ Online Chat 线上聊天室(2020.4)

O聊天室回顾① | 一些陌生人的线上「理聊」

O聊天室回顾② | 从公共交往理性聊到独立思考相对论

O聊天室回顾③ | 城市里的新守护者联盟

O聊天室回顾④ | 共情的维度与弥合的可能

 

Design Notebook 设计记录簿

2020特别公共项目 “什么开始了,什么在结束” | 设计记录簿(上)

2020特别公共项目 “什么开始了,什么在结束” | 设计记录簿(下)

 

Collaborative Writing 联合写作计划(2020.6.7-8.7)

2020特别公共项目 | “联合写作计划”A组实验报告

2020特别公共项目|“联合写作计划”B组实验报告

Biography

OCT Contemporary Art Terminal (OCAT Shenzhen) and OCT Art & Design Gallery are famous contemporary art museums in Shenzhen, operated by Overseas Chinese Town Group (OCT). OCAT Shenzhen was established in 2005. It is located in Shenzhen OCT-LOFT. It is the earliest institution in the OCAT art museums that also opened in Beijing, Shanghai, Wuhan, and Xian. OCT Art & Design Gallery, established in 2008, adjacent to He Xiangning Art Museum, is the first art museum focus on design and experimental art in China.

深圳OCT当代艺术中心(简称OCAT深圳)和华·美术馆是深圳的知名当代美术馆,隶属于深圳华侨城集团。OCAT深圳成立于2005年,位于深圳华侨城创意园区内,是OCAT艺术馆群中最早建立的机构。另外,OCAT在北京、上海、武汉、西安都设有分馆。华·美术馆成立于2008年,毗邻何香凝美术馆,是国内首家以设计和实验艺术为主题的美术馆。

Interview

The names would be abbreviated as “Cleo” (Cleo CHEN), “LIU” (Yang LIU), “CHEN” (Hang CHEN) and “WU” (Yueqin WU).

(之后姓名分别写为“陈昕”、“刘阳”、“航子”、“月钦”)

Cleo: Since the outbreak last February in China, our work and lives changed a lot. Therefore, as an art practitioner, how did you arrange your work and life during this period? Has anything changed?

陈昕:去年国内2月疫情爆发至今,对我们的工作和生活都带来了很大的影响和许多转变。那么想请问你们作为艺术从业者在疫情期间是如何安排自己的工作或生活的?与疫情前有什么不同?

LIU: I did not want to work (Laugh).

刘阳:无心工作。(笑)

CHEN: At that time, we had to embrace the internet to express various emotions and attend events. On account of that, we felt like the project should be transformed to make room for the public, like giving a place for people to speak. There was nothing special, we were in a constricted state at that point in time.

航子:那时候会被网络,周围那些事件和大家的情绪包裹住。我们自己也会觉得之后的项目它需要一个转型,它更多的需要在公共领域有一个表达,就给大家一个地方说话之类的吧。也没有特别的什么呀,就当时还是被包裹的一个状态。

LIU: I felt like everything was nonsense at that moment.

刘阳:我觉得当时做什么都感觉不是太对。

WU: As it was the time for Chinese New Year, but everyone was staying at home with only few tasks to do. My mind felt a little bit scattered because I was being faced with too many intense news updates everyday.

月钦:而且(疫情)刚开始的时候正好经历了在过年嘛,所以大家都呆在家里,也没有太多的工作。我当时感觉自己有点分裂。因为每天都面对很多爆炸式的信息。

What’s more, as we were with our family, we would watch the news on TV a lot. The updates on pandemic situation and the statistical figures appeared on all the different channels all the time. There were not just announcements about the spread of infection, there were also some reports of improvements we had made. For instance, doctors from hospitals all over the country went to Wuhan (the city which suffered the most from the pandemic) to give assistance, or the people in Shandong who delivered tons of food to Wuhan. This kind of solidarity provided us with warm and positive new updates.

因为和家人呆在一起,我们就会每天就会看一些电视上的新闻和各大台的报道。每天就会播一些疫情的状况,比如新增多少、总数多少、死亡多少,然后出院多少。除了有信息的公布,它还会播一些疫情在好转的报道吧。比如,全国各地去援助武汉的医生,比如山东的民众去送菜。这类比较温暖的、积极向上的报道吧。在电视上是一番这样的场景。

At the same time, various independent sources exploded with negative information on Weibo or WeChat (digital social platforms in China). They were saying that the reports on TV were fake, that the reality was the complete opposite. So, when I read these two opposing pieces of information, I was very confused and felt split when thinking: “What was the truth? How reliable are these reports?” Then I became a little anxious and struggled during that period of time. However, this wasn’t that obvious when it came to work.

当时也非常多自媒体在微博或微信上爆一些黑料。比如在电视上是这样的,但实际湖北人民的情况是不一样的一番场景之类的。所以这两方面的信息,我同时看到的话,我就会有一些疑问,也自我有一些分裂,那到底是什么样的一个场景。这些新闻报道的真实可信度有多少。所以我就会在那一段时间有一些焦虑和分裂的心情。在工作上当时的链接还没有特别的清晰。

LIU: In fact, everyone was on vacation in those days, and we didn’t know when we could get back to work. We could get the news through digital platforms which always kept updating every day. Gradually, there were some institutions or individuals trying to do something through their official accounts online. For example, PSA (The Power Station of Art) began a project about morning reading. Whereas, from my position, things like morning reading was just an adjustment for everyone. In addition to receiving news everyday, we received other content but what else could be given to the public to comfort them in this pandemic?

刘阳:其实当时的情况就是大家都在放着假嘛,你也不知道什么时候能回去。你能看到一方面是网络平台的那些消息,一个接一个新的过来,就每天都感觉不一样。慢慢地开始有一些机构,或者是有一些个体,他们也在通过公众号什么的做一些事情。比如说PSA(上海当代艺术博物馆, 英文名为Power Station of Art)做的晨读,随后晚一点也有找设计师做海报设计。可能就像晨读这种东西,我觉得像是一个对大家的一种调剂,就是每天我们除了接收,你全身心的接收这些新闻,或者是各种各样的一些消息之外,然后我还有什么东西能够给到大家一些安慰?

Actually, during that time, many people read more books. For example, readings about philosophy, history or even the plague. It seemed that everyone was pursuing something. Not just reading, there were also people learn to cook, etc. There were too many aspects of our lives that we had no time to pursue and enjoy during the normal, busy time and, so, these things were brought back to us as part of our adjustment to the pandemic pause, even in the very limited indoor space.

其实当时也有很多人重新去看书嘛。包括就看鼠疫啊,或者是看各种各样,有很多哲学家的发声啊什么这些,这其实可以看的东西很多。好像大家都要重新的在这个时候去追寻一点什么东西。另外就是很多人可能会去去做做饮食什么的嘛。就是你怎么样去调节这个生活。

At this time, no one specifically said that we should keep working. This might be because we could not all handle our own situation well at that moment but what could we do to overcome these problems? And how? We could only leave a blank space after these questions. The only thing that might be a reliable solution was keeping calm and thinking, not rushing to act, probably most people were thinking this same thing. Many artists felt that art could not play a practical role within this situation. They had no idea how to respond to that.

所以那个时候没有人去专门提出来说我们应该要工作。我觉得是当时大家自己没有很好的处理自己的状态,但我们应该做什么?应该怎么做?应该是一个问号。就是应该要想一想比急于行动可能要更加靠谱一点。大概是这种感觉吧。当时不是很多艺术家也都觉得其实艺术在这种情况下也起不到什么实际作用。他们也很无力。

I think for arts organisations, some of them were trying to do something. But things of the same kind as before the pandemic were meaningless. And if it acts as merely a calming effect, it can actually be replaced easily.

我觉得对于机构来讲,有一些机构在做一些事情。但是同类的事情没有意义。而且起到的如果是抚慰作用的话,其实也可以被替代。

WU: There were some art institutions which started to publish information online to continue their work at the very beginning of the pandemic. The PSA was one of these institutions which has done quite well and attracted a lot of attention. The project they kept publishing was called the Pandemic Prevention Plan. Some of the content was readings, while other parts involved learning about collections and collaborating with designers. Therefore, when we came to think of our project, maybe just like what Liu said before, we needed to think about how to deal with this kind of new situation and what we could do more effectively because everyone has just experienced a a major disruption or only a small portion of restored reality.

It was the end of March last year when we all returned to Shenzhen to meet up. We sat together face-to-face, had a brainstorm and then communicated together. Our method was to gather all of our feelings and thoughts during the pandemic, and then sort them out. In order to do this, we have held several meetings, some lasting a whole afternoon and, during these meetings, we started to recall and organise those thoughts and memories.

月钦:在疫情期间应该是有一些艺术机构在非常开始,在大家还没有返回工作地点的时候,就在线上推一些东西来持续他们的工作。PSA是做的比较早比较好的,还受到挺多人关注的。他们一直在推应该是叫防疫计划吧。有做这种读书,了解他们的藏品,或者是和设计师合作的。那等到我们的时候,可能就像刚才刘阳说的就是需要想一想怎么来面对这种新的情况,或者是在这种大家都刚经历了很大的灾难,刚回复一点秩序的时候,我们做什么是比较有效的。我们开始考虑这个也是我们3月底,我们大家都回到深圳碰面了,就坐在一起面对面的讨论一起头脑风暴一起去沟通,疫情期间的一些感受和想法,先汇集我们自己的东西,然后再去把它梳理成几条线索吧。所以我们也是开了好几次会,一聊就是整个下午,开始去回忆去整理这些东西。经历了还挺长时间的。

The PSA Series project of Storing Electricity, Smiling, and Getting Together again-from Valentine’s Day to Arbor Day online activities (including the morning reading and the PSD of Pandemic Prevention Plan mentioned above)

PSA“蓄电,微笑,再相聚——从情人节到植树节”线上系列活动 (包含上文提到的晨读和psD防疫计划)相关链接:https://mp.weixin.qq.com/s/QgK0YVGuWI-7f6SQXJfCqA

 

Cleo: China has basically returned to normal now, so what have you found as the main change in your personal experience or discovery in this period?

陈昕:因为现在国内秩序已经基本恢复正常了,那么回看这段时间,个人经历或发现的转变是什么?

CHEN: Do you mean to say what kind of feelings did we have in the process of returning from the previous online state to the physical world, yes?

航子:就是说我们从之前的线上状态又回复到线下的这个过程当中是一个什么样的感受对吗?

Cleo: Exactly.

陈昕:对的。

CHEN: In fact, I don’t think we have completely returned to normal but have partially transformed into a hybrid form. I say this because, when we were doing public projects, we would still first consider online spaces and platforms. For instance, what are the advantages of doing things online and what new things it could link us to. In terms of the physical world, we would pay more attention to what kind of projects were more suitable for developing in person. Now we had another channel of digital approach, and it was quite convenient for cross-domain or cross-regional programmes. Accordingly, there was already a little part of the physical world which had already been transformed into a digital medium.

航子: 我觉得它其实也没有完全回复到线下的状态。它是部分地转化成一个更丰富地形式。我们在做公共项目的话,都会考虑什么是以线上的方式来进行。就是我们在线上它的优势是什么,它能够把我们链接到什么。线下的我们会根据需要去更注重什么样的项目更适合线下去展开。现在多了这种渠道,如果是跨领域、跨地域的对象没有办法到这边来的话,线上还是挺方便的。所以线下有一部分的东西已经在慢慢地转化了。

WU: If you look at this offline and online problem after more than a year, it is really just a formal problem. At the beginning, everyone might pay more attention to offline activities or exhibitions that are closed, so is that art activity is stagnant, or it has become necessary to use online methods, which is a substituted method, to achieve part of the programme or exhibition.

At the beginning, there were some concerns as well as some technical and platform related problems which needed to be solved. Looking back now after more than a year, it is just a formal channel. It depends on what the project is about, and then you have decide whether to do it online or offline. Many programmes or exhibitions are now combined online and offline. If you are offline, you will have a sense of presence. You can notice the expressions and movements of the guest, and you can communicate with them more directly. This is the advantage of the physical, real world scene. I think online has its benefits, and I find that online audiences are more willing to be more expressive. They may be more willing to ask questions that are not easy to ask offline because there is only one screen-name online, or I can’t see the face of the person or hear their voice, so I would be more willing to throw out my own questions and communicate with guests. This is a very good point that I recently discovered.

月钦:可能经历了一年多再看这个线下线上的问题的话,他就真的只是一个形式上的问题。刚开始可能大家都会比较关注线下的活动或展览都关门了,所以是不是艺术方面的活动要停滞了,或者要用线上的,这种被替代的方式实现一部分。刚开始的时候是有一些顾虑的,也要解决一些技术上、平台上的问题。现在过了一年多再回看,它就是形式上的或者就像航子说的渠道。要看项目在意的点是什么?然后再觉得要做线上还是线下。现在很多都是线上线下结合嘛。线下的话就有一种现场感,可以注意到嘉宾的表情和动作,可以直接和他沟通,这就是现场的优势。我觉得线上也有它的好处,我会发现在线上观众更愿意打开自己。他们可能会更愿意抛出在线下不太好问的问题。因为在线上只有一个笔名,听到声音看不到脸,所以会更愿意抛出自己的疑问和嘉宾沟通。这是近期发现的一个挺好的点。

LIU: Thoughts and changes brought about by the pandemic still exist now. It has proven to be very hard to gain a consensus from the public. However, after this period, our sense of some problems or phenomena have become more and more intensified. This has also continued until now. When we are talking with the public about some of these issues, this is actually a bit of a minefield that was easy to make mistakes with, so we should pay more attention to these issues. Consequently, there is a phenomenon that things which used to be easily set aside have become intensified and can create ambiguity. It is more difficult for people to have a rational discussion during the current situation.

刘阳:到疫情后面延续下来的一些认识和变化,一个是一直延续到今天的。在社会当中形成对事情的共识是越来越艰难的,在疫情之后对于问题、对于制度的认同感啊,对于民族的情绪呀,它其实是阵营越来越激化的,所以也越来越分明了,所以相互之间也很难去说服什么,这一点是一直延续到现在的。所以我们在谈论一些问题,或面向一些公众进行一些讨论的时候,其实这是一个很容易被触碰到的,可能需要留意的点。就是可能过去比较容易形成的共识,或比较容易搁置的东西,在疫情之后只能通过稍微的模糊和回避来做。我觉得现在比较难做理性的探讨了。这是一个。

Another thought is our role as the art museum. Actually, there was a very crucial point in the process of creating this new project. During our preparation, we always felt that the pandemic was about to pass, but we never knew what was going to happen the next day. This was the reason we did not act quickly, and in fact, our actions to it were not prioritized. I felt that I didn’t see it clearly at the time, so when we came back to work, there was a realistic question: how do you reappear as an art institution to the public now?

然后另外一个是我们对于美术馆的角色来讲,其实当时做这个新的项目也有一个蛮关键的点,在我们准备工作的时候就觉得疫情快要过去了,因为你在疫情还没有过去的时候,你不知道第二天会发生什么。这是我们没有去行动的原因,其实也不缺你的这一个行动。感觉当时自己也没有看的多清楚,所以回来工作时,有一个现实的问题:你这个时候作为一个艺术机构,要怎么重新出现在大家面前?

I don’t think we can act as if no pandemic happened and reopen an exhibition that had been closed just like we’re back to normal, as well as restarting the other related activities. Ignoring it seems to cover up too much from this specific period and it doesn’t empathise with the public. So, this was one of our motivations to create this public project. Even until now, what we have in common in doing public projects is that after some things happen, it is difficult to argue with each other from different positions; if something has been experienced together, there will be a common understanding or overview. I may not need to say anything in fact, everyone can already understand.

我觉得不能将一些东西遗忘,像是没有事情发生。把疫情前的展览继续开着,围绕展览做活动。这就过渡地像是掩饰了太多东西,和大众也是无法共情的。所以这是我们去做这个项目的动机。到今天,我们做公共项目的共同点是,有些事情发生过后,相关的立场很难去相互论证;有些事情共同经历过,就会有共同的认知或者概述,我可能不需要去说什么其实大家也能明白。

When we were doing this project, we took an empathetic view of what the people might need. Therefore, we have made the project have a change of focus. As a result of being over saturated with information, this may stop people from thinking their own thoughts on it. What appeared most from the public were the voices of different people, leaders, or other artists and designers, telling everyone how they were thinking and living. In fact, it was nothing different from others, and I couldn’t see anything particularly unique. As a result, we wanted to give the right to narration and communication to ordinary people. Actually, with so much emphasis on sharing these thoughts, the desire to talk about them gets weaker, but it doesn’t disappear completely. Even in this state, it exists and just needs an opportunity to be expressed. That is how this project started.

当时做这个项目的话,是我们如何站在共情的角度思考大家需要什么。所以我们做了一个去中心化的聊天和写作。因为大家在疫情期间都接受太多东西,过多单向的输入导致我们反而无法去自主地思考太多。你周围能出现的也是别人的声音,或者大佬们啊、领袖啊、和其他一些艺术家设计师的身份,来告诉大家自己是怎么想、怎么过的。其实和其他人没有什么区别,在这个过程中没有见到特别有超越性的东西。所以我们就想着说我们应该把这种讲述和交流,交还给普通人。当你知道那么多,讲述的欲望其实也在漫长的过程当中越来越弱,但并没有消失,可能只是需要一个机会去表达。所以就有了这个项目。

When it was completed, we gained much more confidence. I felt that we all could have some discussions restrainedly, and people did want to express their perspectives. This also reflected that the young people nowadays were getting more interested in being vocal and it is something they need to do. A project like this was new for us, a kind of test. Consequently, when we do projects later, we would consider about how could normal people be involved and whether they might need a space of participation. I think the project was affecting all of us simultaneously more or less.

当时这个项目做了之后也给我们特别大的信心,觉得大家是可以有节制地做一些探讨的,也都有表达的欲望。其实以前也知道说现在的年轻人越来越善于表达,也需要表达了。像这个项目就是更直接的一个印证吧。之后我们再去做项目时,会考虑普通人的角色在当中起到的作用和需要给到他们的空间。所以,我觉得这个项目都有在或多或少地影响着我们三个人吧。

 

Cleo: As the project was a platform of decentralised discussion, which part of it do you like the best? Is there anything else you want to share with the audience?

陈昕:因为这个项目是一个去中心化探讨的平台嘛,所以你们自己最喜欢这个项目的哪个部分?还有没有什么是想分享给观众的?

WU: When I was preparing for this interview, I also liked this “decentralisation” idea the most. In fact, this was also reflected by the following question 5 (Question 5-Have you ever thought about what effect or impact this project was trying to achieve?). The OCAT Shenzhen Pavilion has rarely done such activities before. Previously, we used to do more like professional forums or lectures which were academic, rather than some activities closely connected with the audience. In this term, holding the “O2 chat room” last year was also a beginning. Because as usual, whether we were generating reports, exhibitions, or listening to some lectures and forums in the library, it was all knowledge-based sharing with the unidirectional outputting method. The role of the audiences was always very passive, even the section of mutual communication was also around the theme set by the speaker, or the content mentioned before.

月钦:我在准备这个采访的时候,想的也是最喜欢这个“去中心化”的想法。其实这个也关联到后面的问题5(问题5 – 有没有思考过这个项目是想要达到一个什么样的效果或影响?)。OCAT深圳馆之前比较少做这类活动。之前比较常做看起来比较专业、学术性强的专业论坛或讲座。很少会做一些和观众联系得很紧密的活动。其实去年做这个O2聊天室的时候,也是一个开启。因为按照惯常来说,我们无论是做报道、展览、还是在图书馆里听一些讲座和论坛都是一个自上而下的一个知识型的分享。观众是作为一个被动者的角色去倾听去学习,相互交流也是围绕着讲者定的主题,或在一个多小时里讲的内容。

When designing the O2 chat room, we intended to only provide a platform and topics that everyone could discuss. Our role was to lead and connect. Just focusing on encouraging the audience to share, tell, and discuss with each other. We had also found the results amazing during the course of four games. Every scene there would be audiences sharing spontaneously, especially during the last two games. Although they didn’t know each other and could only talk through the audios, they still discussed a lot. With regard to the common experiences and feelings between everyone, they did give each other some opinions or suggestions. In conclusion, it was an incredible experience.

O2聊天室我们在设计的时候就是打算只提供一个平台和给大家可以讨论的话题。我们的角色就是引导和串联。鼓励在场的观众去分享和述说,鼓励他们相互之间的讨论。不会做其他的作用。在四场的过程中我们也取得了一个挺好的效果。每一场都会有观众自发地分享。特别到后面两场,虽然他们都是不认识的,就是在线上听彼此的声音,但还是引起了非常多的讨论。就大家之间共同的经历和感受,还是能给到对方一些观点或建议的。其实是一个挺好的尝试的。

CHEN: Every stage the audience participated in was great, including the overall investment and their attention to the public issues. Since it was during the pandemic, it would cause everyone’s thinking to pay more attention to their surrounding environment and the wider context. Because the pandemic contained so many different factors, we’ve selected four main directions that we thought were suitable… (The directions mentioned above were the four themes of the O2 chat room: 1 . When the Internet has become the only thing we have. 2. Public communicating space and independent thinking; 3. Another eye; 4. Tearing and Recovering)

航子:观众们参与进来的整个状态就是挺棒的,包括到观众们整体的投入度和对公共议题的关注。当时在疫情这种特别的环境下,大家的思维多少会更加关注于周围环境,以及所涉及的语境。当时因为疫情其实也包含了太多可以说的层面,所以我们讨论出了这四个方向,我们认为是很符合当时大家的状态的。(这里提到的方向就是O2聊天室的四个主题:1. 当我们只有网络;2. 公共话语空间与独立思考;3.另一只眼睛;4.撕裂与弥合 )

WU: Actually, there were a few great topics that everyone wanted to talk about.

月钦:其实蛮击中他们的,也是大家想要说的几个话题。

CHEN: They effected everyone’s thoughts, that is, everyone could have something to add. Correspondingly, Consequently, we had a space that didn’t call on anyone specifically, but focused on public discussion. The guests involved were happy to participate by sharing and discussing these with each other. As a consequence of this virtual and online status, everyone could express it even more. The physical social pressure had gone, which could let them be more relaxed.

航子:其实就能引起大家的共情吧,就是能够在这里面有话说,有自己的意见想要表达。然后又有这样的空间,然后又达到了这种没有特别说大家要去中心化,这使大家很自觉就形成了一个公共讨论的氛围。我们邀请的嘉宾也很乐于和大家分享和探讨。因为这种虚拟的、线上的状态,大家更加可以表达了。那种在线下与人相处的社交压力明显消失了,这使大家呈现出更放松的一种状态。

LIU: I totally agreed with selecting these themes for the chat room and we’ve paid a lot of attention to them. It’s not only about empathizing with audiences, but also about the problems exposed during this and the experience of this current situation that is the focus of our institution. The four themes formed an organic combination, all of them were necessary and representative. Regarding these arrangements, WU is being modest. We’ve made lots of arrangements of the context, it isn’t necessarily about finding only the right guests, you also have to make sure the form of dialogue and communication is right.

刘阳:我很赞同聊天室的几个主题,确实是我们斟酌过的。它不仅仅是跟大家共情,而且是和疫情中暴露出来的问题,和大体的现象,基本是我们的覆盖面。通过这四个主题还是能够形成一个有机的组合,四个领域都很有必要,也很有代表性。它们组合在一起也是很有机的。关于铺排顺序这些,月钦有点谦虚了哈哈。虽然我们背后没有做过很多东西,但我们要做的东西也没有因此而少了。反而以前这种找嘉宾的活,你要把嘉宾找对,跟嘉宾形成到沟通跟对话就可以了。

I remember at the time we considered which theme should come first, how to cut into the topic suitably, gently, influentially, and effectively, in a way that had the potential to be expanded on, or even which part to talk about at which point, etc. The project was actually arranged by considering about emotion and rhythm.

像这个项目,我记得当时我们去考虑哪一个主题在最先,怎么切入是最适合的,温和的,又有影响力的,或者是有展开的可能性的,哪一个部分去讲什么,这次理的顺序,当中其实是有情绪和节奏上的铺排的。

In addition, if you wanted to mobilize everyone to discuss actively, it’s actually not that simple to facilitate the chat. We’ve even made an Excel form for prearrangement which everyone signed up to, this helped to understand everyone’s situation or what they might want to express, etc. The preparation that everyone can participate in this project, and discussion can cover everyone, when to introduce what kind of topic, who is next to respond, who is the one to share their stories. These are all are related. When you ask a question, many Chinese audiences don’t answer it immediately or in detail. So we need to guide them to offer more details in the project and to help them to express their thoughts.

另外,要调动起大家都在这里面发言的话,其实串场也没有那么简单。当时还做了Excel的表格,在大家报名的时候,就已经开始铺排。就了解每个人的状况和想表达的东西等等。就是为了后面每一场可以组织大家,然后覆盖到每一个人,或者是在什么时候引入什么样的话题,让谁来回应,让谁来讲述,都是有关联的。因为国内的观众不是你抛出一个问题,大家就会开始发言就会开始说,其实没有到这样的一个状态。所以在这个项目当中我们是融入了这样的一些心思和方法,去触碰或者去铺排。

It’s also not enough just to let everyone discuss with each other, because the audience actually came to learn something. Thus, where this might come from? On the one hand, we did have very insightful audiences, on the other hand, we actually had done a lot of research. We also needed to prepare the propositions, to provide everyone with something to expand on, or create space to think more about the topics. We even interviewed different people about the questions of “Public Space and Independent Thinking”, some things were not easy to discuss, and some people knew a lot but they wouldn’t like to speak out. We also found someone in the press and communicated with them behind the scenes, and then went to analyze with everyone at the site of the project to let audiences realize how would people with that backgrounds face these problems with their judgments and so on. In fact, there were still a lot of things we didn’t cover.

也不能完全让大家互相讲述就完了,因为观众来到这个活动其实是想要收获一些东西的。那么干货从哪里来?一方面是我们也确实有观众很有见地,另一方面我们其实也要做功课。我们自己也要就命题做功课,去提供给大家一些可以去展开的,或者是有一些知识性的可以吸收的空间。甚至包括我们当时也采访过不同的人,像“公共空间与独立思考“那个话题的时候,有一些东西其实不太好去触碰,有些人知道很多东西,但不一定会去现身说法。所以我们也找了新闻界的一些人,和他们做幕后的聊天和沟通,然后在活动现场当时再去和大家分析说,像他们这样背景的人会怎么面对这些问题,在当时又该怎么判断等等。就其实还是有很多背后的功课在做的。

And I was quite satisfied with the “joint writing”. In fact, it had already been done by others before, but it was really suited to our context, like everyone could erase and overthrow each other more dynamically.

那个“联合写作”我是比较满意的。其实别的地方别的人也有做,但可能是那种比较强势的,大家可以互相擦除和推翻的,就暴力型的那种。

But the rule we made at the time was that everyone could not change what the former said, but they could create their own space freely. It could be treated as a mirror image of the real society, like how would we express our opinions on the basis of respecting the thoughts of others. We should still have our own attitude.

但是我们当时定的规则是每个人都不能改前面的人说的话,但可以在自己的篇幅理发挥。我们就把它当作现实社会里的一个镜像吧。你在尊重别人书写的基础之上,怎么去表达自己想要说的故事。我们还是有自己的有态度的。

However, there were still regrets. It was something we discussed after the text was finished, it was because of the rules we laid down that the audiences were not allowed to change the prior person’s opinion. Despite not being able to change what the previous person had said, if someone was very good at observing the relationship in society, people’s way of thinking, and human nature from the perspective of writing, then he could also see the relationship between people in the process of self-expression. Therefore I always thought: could we tell what everyone was trying to do from the text? They were always trying to confirm the previous one. Hence, it’s not just about a confirmation of the relationship between the front and back ends. It could have been that the second-to-last person disagreed with the person in the middle, so had taken over an answer. Then how could he use his own way to connect several previous stories to complete the whole round? There would be a lot of identities and disagreements involved, and also recognition of others’ expression. I thought that if someone could do this kind of research or analysis, it must be quite interesting. The disappointment was that we did not have time to explore this during that time.

有一个东西没有做到,我觉得有点遗憾,但也是我期待的。当时有讨论过说,文本写完了之后,因为我们定下来的规则。如果有人非常擅长从写作的角度去观察社会中的关系,人的思考方式,人性,他可以从不能纂改前面人的,但可以自我发挥的过程中,可以看得到人和人的关系。从文本里能否看的到说,有些人在试图做什么呢。他在试图印证前面的。而且这个东西不仅仅是前后两端的印证关系。还有些人可能倒数第二个不认同中间的某个人的写作推翻或反转的方式,那他又怎么用自己的方式去衔接上好几篇前的故事,去完成一个故事转向。就是这里面有很多的认同不认同,有很多如何理解他人表达的东西。我感觉如果有人做这种讲述分析的话,可能会挺有意思的。我们当时是没有来得及去做这个事情。

 

Cleo: The project was still very close to the audience, which was not the same as the previous lectures and forums. In your opinion, how could you balance the popularization and professionalism of public projects?

陈昕:因为这个项目还是比较接近观众的,和以往的讲座、论坛不太一样,那在您们看来应如何平衡公共项目的大众化和专业性呢?

WU: We need both.

月钦:我觉得可能都需要有吧。

CHEN: We could neither purely allow one way of doing something that the audience must accept, nor could be completely without guidance and clues. The two states must occur simultaneously, including the interaction and the later status of audiences’ participation which could actually form feedback. It may affect your future plans, or the directions you want to explore.

航子:也不能纯粹地把一条路锁死,让观众去单向接受,也不能完全没有引导和线索串联。它是两者并行的一个状态,包括互动和观众后期参与的状况,其实可以形成反馈。它可能会影响你以后在一些环节的设计,或者是你想探讨和想做的方向,它可能也会有一定的影响。

WU: What kind of activities an art museum does, whether it is more professional or more connected to the audience, are connected to its position. This will depend on how the art gallery positions itself. Whether it’s more professional or community-oriented that has a closer relationship with residents, or is it more focusing on children like A4(an institution). Even if the position of an institution is biased, it should take into account a wider group of people too. I think we need to consider about the audience, they should participate or have a certain connection with the project, as well as interactivity.

月钦:一个美术馆要做什么类型的活动,要更有专业性还是更联系观众,可能首先会和它的定位相关。要看美术馆是怎么定位自己。它是更偏向专业型研究型的,还是更偏向社区,和居民联系比较紧,还是像A4那样更注重每年和儿童打交道。即使一个美术馆定位有偏重的话也应该顾及到更广泛的一个人群。我觉得要考虑到观众,要参与到,也要和机构有一定联系,还有互动性吧。

LIU: That point is great. In the field of public education, we can feel a sense of unity. It’s like on one aspect art museums were saying that public education was very important. On the other one, the resources available to these museums were very limited. Thirdly, we could find that most of the projects may be the public guided tours for special groups of people, such as children’s education, that’s all the most obvious thing.

刘阳:我觉得月钦这个说的挺好。公共教育其实能感受到一种抱团取暖的感觉。就一方面美术馆在说公共教育很重要,另一方面其实这些馆能得到的资源很有限,第三方面你会发现公教大多数可能是公众导览,特殊人群的,比如儿童的教育啊,最明显就是这些了。

What you had just talked about reminds me of this problem, I think the reasons might be: First of all, people working in public education should know to what extent the problem was in their own knowledge structure. When it came to the balancing problem, you needed to have to be able to go deeper yourself, then take a simple matter from this as a goal. You must consider different audiences and adjust to their knowledge level in different ways. But as a working individual, whether it was about the problem itself, or the ideas and the Art world, you should always have professional requirements for yourself.

你们刚聊的这些我就想起来,对于这个问题,我觉得蛮大的一个原因,首先是做公教的人自己的问题是和自己的知识结构在哪个程度上。关系到平衡这个问题,就是你得自己先能够深入。然后把浅出这个事情作为一个目标,你肯定要考虑不同的受众,用不同的方式去调节他的难易程度。但首先作为工作的个体,不管是在问题本身,还是对于理念、艺术界的东西,对自己也应该有专业上的要求。

I don’t think that it is a service relationship with the curator of the exhibition, or  what you need to do is to explain or make efforts in simple terms. You have to consider a complex issue first, and then consider how to present this for different levels of understanding. We all should have this ability to adjust to their abilities.

跟展览的策展人不要觉得是一种服务关系,或只需要阐释或浅出就ok。你要先深入得进去,然后再考虑用哪种方式去输出,这才是达到平衡的关键。应该要有这样的能力去调节自己的灵活度。

CHEN: I don’t think I can be included in that. (Laughs) I feel that everyone’s demands are still very different. When they were complaining about things whether from the institutional or structural constraints, or the direction and philosophy of their work, they didn’t actually understand it. At that time, it was obvious that everyone was doing various things, including inside of the institutions and outside. At that time, many of the people who participated were from the National Art Gallery or local museums. In fact, everyone did much of the same. It seems that I didn’t want to break through the siege, or to have a new direction of exploration.

航子:我就觉得我抱不到那个团。(笑)就感觉大家的诉求还是很不一样的。很多时候他们在抱怨的东西,无论从体制上,还是结构的限制也好,或者是说个人的一个工作的方向和理念也好,其实他们自己也没有想的特别明白。那时很明显能看出大家做的事情很不一样,包括体制内和体制外也很不一样。当时参与的人很多是国家美术馆,或地方博物馆,大家其实做的事情大同小异。好像没有想突破重围,或者有新方向的探索。

We shared the project (In)finite Museum Night at the time. Everyone thought it was good and we did a good job by exploring that direction. However, things like this do happen relatively rarely in art museums and institutions. No one has the intention of developing a new direction. This thinking sometimes prevents actions. It has a lot to do with the awareness of the staff in each agency.

我们当时分享“美术馆之夜”,大家都觉得不错,这个方向做得好,但是我觉得这个事情在美术馆和艺术机构里确实发生得比较少,大家没有意愿想往这方面发展,有时候理念会阻止行动。它和每个机构里的工作人员的意识是很有关系的。

The link of (In)finite Museum Night:

华·美术馆活动“美术馆之夜“的相关链接:

https://mp.weixin.qq.com/s/UW0jzA4CrZvUWgRjZzQFmg

https://mp.weixin.qq.com/s/Nq2yXuMTvYnmjFbKRJq5ZA

LIU: Public projects are not superficial. There are various kinds of various groups in the public community. If you really want to engage with the public, you may have to be flexible and able to meet the needs of people at different levels. Some people require more advanced engagement, while others are easier. Even just in terms of self-demand, we should at least be able to do this.

刘阳:公共不等于浅。公共的群体里面是有很多层次的。如果你真的要实现公共性的话,你可能就要有弹性,能应对不同层度需求的人,有些人要求得深一些,有人浅一点。那对于自我要求来讲的话,也要达到这种状态。

So in the process of creating O2 chat room as we said earlier, we couldn’t just stop at letting everyone talk to each other, we still had to do things that could improve and enhance the projects. This is related to our consciousness.

所以像我们前面说的做O2聊天室的过程当中,也不能仅仅只停留在让大家互相讲述,就是你该提升、该拔高的东西还是得要去做。和你的意识还是蛮有关系的。

WU: Public projects are quite two-sided. It is necessary to connect with the exhibition and research departments to discuss the exhibitions or research projects together, and know what the concept and topic the curator is trying to convey. Then we have to come to the following consideration of what kind of professional forums or lectures we need to output, and also consider the diversity of the public and what they can accept. Although what we do is to contact the public community more, we would also collect professional concepts and ideas to support it, and we would still throw out some content and information. As for whether the audience could accept or realise these points or not, it’s also a point that we shouldn’t ignore when planning or considering projects.

月钦:公共项目还是挺两面性的。既要联通到展览部、研究部,一起讨论一个展览或研究型的项目,知道策展人想要传达表达的概念和议题是什么。然后又要联通到下面考虑到我们需要输出什么样专业类型的论坛或讲座,又要考虑到公众的多样性,什么是他们能够接受的。虽然我们做的是联系公众社区比较多的,但也会有比较专业的概念和想法去支撑他,在适当的环节适当的点,我们还是会抛出一些有内容、知识性的输出。至于观众能不能接受,或get到这些点,就是我们在做策划或考虑项目的时候并不能忽略这个。

 

Cleo: What kind of changes have taken place in the domestic public education industry or the entire art museum group during the pandemic?

陈昕:国内的公教行业或整个美术馆群在疫情期间发生了一个什么样转变?

WU: Obviously, we’ve all turned our attentions and work online.

月钦:就明显大家都做线上了。(笑)

Cleo: Exactly.

陈昕:是的。

CHEN: And at that time, many people were discussing issues around the pandemic, whether to do exhibitions or not. The pandemic topic was even included in the official needs. Despite the pandemic period I wanted to meet the situation head on and I wanted to make things happen quickly, this needed to be done effectively. The entire art museum industry actually had devices and mechanisms for this. It has completely turned to cope with the conditions of the pandemic. However, we still chose the topics we were most concerned about and put them into practice.

航子:而且那个时候发现很多人就是围绕疫情来展开议题,无论是展览也好,包括也有官方的需求。根据疫情这个东西,我要应景,我要当下立刻去发生,我要去实际去做事情。整个美术馆行业其实也是有这个风向标。完全也是倒向了疫情,我们主要还是选择了自己最关注的议题去发生吧。

LIU: In fact, it is not only for the public education. The public education was most obviously the online one, but there was not only us. We were all the same. As for the art industry, everyone was aware that when we had no way to link with foreign artists and treated them as the main body of art, a lot of artistic creation and artistic attention turned to be internal. One way was the cooperation with domestic artists, and the other was the re-exposure of locality. It was the field of observation within which we currently work in. This was quite obvious and was including artistic creation and the project itself. Like communities and local discoveries, these two directions should continue to accumulate in hot spots. In the past, people regarded this kind of project as something that was done by artists, for the public, and cared about the relationship with the public. Some artists lived in another art system and totally didn’t need to think about the public. After the pandemic, public awareness has increased, and the objects of everyone’s work had been internalized. I think that the entire art world should be allowed to make public and community-based creations or projects. Then there could be more kindness and understanding. I wouldn’t divide it like I used to say, community or connected artists, I’m not that kind of person.

刘阳:其实不仅仅是对公共教育。公教最明显就是线上的这个,但也不光是公教。其他各种项目都是一样的。对于艺术这个行业,大家都意识到了,当你没有办法和国外的艺术家链接,把他们作为艺术主体的时候,很多艺术创作、艺术关注转向内部。一个是对于国内艺术家的合作,一个是在地性被重提,它是我们目前工作对象可及的观察田野。这是一个蛮明显的,现在包括艺术创作和项目本身都是这种情况。像社区,以及本地的发现,这两个方向应该是往热点上不断的在累积。过去大家把这种项目看作是,某些艺术家去做的,面向大众的,去在乎跟公众的关系。某些艺术家在另一个艺术系统生活,不用去考虑大众,不用去不在这个系统。在疫情后公共意识的增强,大家工作的对象内部化。我觉得应该让整个艺术界对于公共性、社区性的创作或项目。都会有更多地善意和理解。不会像以前一样再去划分说,社区性或和大众关联的艺术家,我可能不是这一类。

CHEN: At that time, I heard that because of the pandemic, the operation of MOMA was not well, so the marginal public education system staff were fired from outside. In fact, when I heard this news, I was very sad. It seemed that the channel facing the audience was the first to be targeted, we seemed to be seen as the dispensable ones. It was like a crisis of survival and at the end of the world, you were the first group of people to be left behind. This was what I thought, I don’t know, maybe from the view of the public, they might not even know what we were doing. Then I interviewed many interns and talked about that position. The first thing they talked about was exhibition, and the thing they wanted to contact most was curation. Besides those, they didn’t think about anything else in this field. I also asked them what was the role of the public in the art gallery? Or what did they know about it? They would directly say about the curation or exhibition. At present, there were still too many misunderstandings about this field in China. We are always in a marginal position.

航子:当时不是听说MOMA那边因为疫情,运营状况不是太好,所以开掉了外聘的边缘性的公教系统的人员。其实听到这个消息的时候还是挺难过,好像面向观众的渠道是最首先被盯上的,然后这是属于边缘的状态,好像可有可无。好像是生存大危机一样,到世界末日,你好像是首先被抛下的那一群人。就是这点让我觉得,我不知道,可能这几年来从事这个事情,可能在大众眼里,他们可能根本真的不知道你在干什么。然后面试了那么多实习生,聊到这个岗位,他们首先说的是展览,他们想要接触的是策展,他们对这个职务和这个领域的概念甚至是0的状态。或者我问公共在美术馆里的角色是什么样子的?或他有什么认识?他会直接和你说策展或展览的事情。这个目前来说,国内对于这个事情还是有误解在,或者这个一直处于一个边缘的地位。

LIU: This was more obvious before the epidemic, but it has changed after the period. In fact, the space of the “white box” (a name of the the Art institutions that hold exhibitions) has expired during the period, because there was no way for everyone to enter the space of the white box. Another experimental site during this period of time, was that everyone would find the charm of their experiments in other places, or place art back into the social scene. The vitality and possibility of this was more anticipated and more promising than the white box. Some things that couldn’t be anticipated could even inspire more new possibilities. This was being accepted in the art world, and its charm was renewed.

刘阳:这个在疫情前是比较明显的,疫情之后有在变化。其实白盒子的空间在疫情期间已经失效,因为大家没有办法进去白盒子的空间。另一个实验场所在这段时间里面,大家会发现你在其他场所进行实验的魅力,或者是说把艺术放回到社会的现场中去,这其中的生机和可能性比白盒子更有期待和无法预期的一些东西,更能激发出新的可能。这个在艺术界里是在接纳着,和重新发出它的魅力的。

On the other hand, it’s about whether public projects are equivalent to curation. This is what we practitioners need to show in the creativity of public projects, and the the benefits are not less than those exhibitions at all, and could also impress the public and promote the Art creation. If this is done, everyone would realize that there are many things that could be done in this field. In the past, as CHEN said, in many organizations, there was not enough space for public projects to work independently. We are in a relatively good situation now, including the era we are in, there is also room for full absorption, including the positioning between professionalism and the public, and you can also define it through your own vision and methods. However, how to let it affect more people and get rid of stereotypes? It may depend on something that we do.

另一方面来讲的话,关于公共项目是否等同于策展。这是我们从业人得要去展现出公共项目当中的创造性,和它不亚于展览中能触及的东西,对人的打动和对作品创造的推动。做到这些的话,大家会认识到这里面有很多可做的东西。以前像航子所说的那样,在很多机构里,没有去充分激发公共项目可以独立工作的空间,我们还算比较好的状况。包括我们在的时代也是有充分吸收的空间,包括对专业性和大众之间的定位,也可以通过自己的视野和方式去定义它,但它能不能影响到更多的人,能不能刷新大家的认识。可能就要靠我们不断去做的一些东西。

The huge difference from the West is that the West would not say that publicity is not only important, but a very important part in the entire system and social fundraising. Actually, when discussing the concept of “public” in China, it is actually more about getting close to the meaning of Western society. However, there are many differences within the inner logic between public education in Western countries and China, so there must be some bluntness to this. Therefore, we still need to combine our own background and situation, and have our own ideas and identification for specific goals.

和西方蛮大的差别就是,西方不会说公共性不重要,公共是整个机制和社会筹款里一个非常重要的说明。和国内不一样,国内讨论到公共其实更多是追逐西方社会价值。但实际上背后的运转逻辑有一些差别,所以当中肯定会有一些生硬的地方。所以还是要结合自己的背景和状况,要有自己的理解和认定的一个目标。

 

Cleo: I also followed some activities of art museums, and I really feel that they have shifted from physical artworks to the spread of online artistic thoughts. It feels that public education has become more important. Then I would like to ask what do you think of the relationship between online platforms and physical space?

陈昕:我在这边也有关注美术馆的一些活动。我有很真切地感受到他们从线下的、实体的艺术品转向了线上的艺术思维的传播。就感觉公教变得更重要了。然后还想请问你们觉得在线平台和实体空间的关系是什么呢?

LIU: They are not a relationship of reflection either. That is, online is the digital community, and offline is the physical space. Facing with different dimensions, there must be different goals and different methods. Advantages WU and CHEN have mentioned are that they could be connected to a wider network, and cross the physical distance to achieve exchanges within a wider coverage. To a certain extent, it has returned to the blueprint that the Internet originally gave to the world— we could achieve an unhindered communication. In fact, it is true that there are some issues that are not easy to implement physically, but if they are online, there will be a digital space, and then more people from different regions could have the opportunity to participate remotely.

刘阳:他们也不是一个镜像关系。就是线上是线上的社区,实体空间是实体空间的工作场域。面对不同的工作场域就要有不同的目标和不同的方法。好处刚月钦和航子都讲到了,可以链接到更广泛的网络,和更广泛的人,可以跨越物理上的距离去实现一些交流。某种程度上,它恢复到了互联网最初给世界的蓝图,就是我们可以实现到不受阻碍的一些交流。事实上也确实是,有一些议题不太好在线下实现,但在线上的话,就有一些空间,然后可以让更多不同地方的人都有机会参与进来。

CHEN: It is not only about real-time state, but also the state of knowledge sharing. Just like the contribution and knowledge-sharing status emphasized by the early founders of the World Wide Web, comparing with this, offline might be a bit more conservative. Whereas, they are not in an antagonistic relationship.

航子:它不仅仅是实时的状态,也是知识分享的状态。就像早期万维网创立的人强调的贡献性、知识共享型的状态,线下反而有点保守。但他们也不是对立的,泾渭分明的状态和关系。

LIU: Neither opposing, nor mirroring.

刘阳:不对立,也不是镜像。

CHEN: Right. It depends on it and what field the object needs. There is choice to make or it may be a combination of online and offline.

航子:对。还是看事情、这个对象需要什么场域。准备好去选择,也可能是线上下做结合的嘛。

LIU: Current blockchain, digital art.

刘阳:现在的区块链,数字艺术。

CHEN: About decentralisation.

航子:就是去中心化的。

LIU: Yes, as a financial investment approach, a brand-new product has been made with the help of online platforms. It’s about how you use the line as a space or parallel world, in which many possibilities might occur. Regardless of whether this thing is being used as art or as an investment, just on its own, it shows how you understand online channels, which is another field of your work, and a world in which art may emerge. If you want to go deeper, there are lots of things worth exploring.

刘阳:对,作为一种金融投资手段,借助线上的平台,做成了一个全新的产品。那这个可能它更像是你如何把线上作为一种空间或平行世界,在里面可以发生很多可能性。姑且不论这个东西作为艺术还是作为投资在弄,就像这个事情一样,它展现的是在你如何理解线上的渠道,就是你另一个工作的场域,和艺术可能发生的一个世界吧。如果你要往深度去弄的话,这其中有很多东西值得再去探索。

CHEN: This is what happens from using a certain medium, but it’s like that when it comes to relationships.

航子:这是作为媒介这个方向,但谈到关系的话就是那样。

 

Cleo: The last question, do you have any suggestions for young people who aim to work in the field of public education?

陈昕:最后一个问题是想请问你们有什么建议给到想要从事公教行业的青年吗?

CHEN: Firstly, figure out what you want to do. (Laughs) It’s really important. And you need to prepare to be an all-rounder, because you need to do everything, from beginning to end, from scratch to establishing.

航子:先搞清楚他想要做什么。(笑)挺好的。要有做一个多面手的觉悟。什么都要干,就是从头到尾、从无到有的一个状态。

LIU: Exactly. To make yourself worthy of lofty ideals, but also to be able to stand on the ground. It is also necessary to work hard.

刘阳:对。要让自己既配得起有高远的理想,又要能够脚踏实地。埋头干活也是要的。

CHEN: Nonetheless, now more and more people realized there is still a position like this which is a good trend.

航子:不过现在慢慢地越来越多人知道还可以有这个职务,或者美术馆里有这样的岗位,有这样的事情可以从事也挺好的。

LIU: In terms of the direction we are doing now, the requirements of comprehensive abilities are still very strict. At the same time, it may not be as simple as the exhibition department producing several exhibitions during the year. You need to have ability of both dealing with extended issues and working with ideas and specific goals. And everyone is also interspersed with each other, so you have to deal various things simultaneously with flexibility. To ensure these, the personal professional ability is still needed.

刘阳:其实我们现在做的方向来说,对人的综合能力的要求还是很高的。同时他可能产出的时候,不一定像展览部一样一年几个展览那么清晰。你既要处理很多延伸出来的东西,你也要有自己的工作思路和目标。大家相互之间也是穿插的。你要同时应对,你的灵活度和弹性要有。要保证这些的话,对个人的专业能力要求还是蛮高的。还是那句既能深入又能浅出。

In terms of this point, if you want to achieve flexibility in public projects, you not only need to have related knowledge, but also need to have the ability to transform the project. If you only stay at the surface level, or you couldn’t go deep into the artistic dialogue, or you just only take it as social services, these are all treated as limitations to public projects. You may prevent other possibilities of the social elements to art.

这一点上来讲的话,如果想要在公共项目实现灵活度,你不但要有相关概念,还要有项目的转换能力。如果你只停留在表面,或者无法与艺术创作进行对话,抑或是只注重社会服务,这些都是对公共项目的阉割,你自己亲手阉割掉了这些如何激发艺术社会属性的可能性。

But having said that, this is still very ideal. It does not mean that there are all the same cases in every organization. You have to look at it according to the needs of the institution, and also the needs of your own position. It is also helpful to do audience surveys and research. The core is still to have the ability of promoting and innovating. This is required regardless of the career.

但是话说回来,这是比较高远的理想,也不是说每个机构里面都是这种情况,你要根据机构的需求来看,你也要有自己的界定,做观众调查和研究也是很好的工作方向。核心还是要有自我要求和创新的能力。这是无论哪一个层面的工作都要的。

CHEN: The work of public education is also changing as time goes by. Including the things you care about, or whether you are in contact with the exhibition, or the exploration in the network of your own development, no matter the medium of expression, the topics being discussed, or the people involved, they are always changing. Public education is changing along with the change of perception of society.

航子:这个工作也在随时代变化而变化。包括你关注的东西,跟展览联系也好,或者你自己发展的脉络里的探索也好,无论它表达的媒介,或者讨论的议题,还是参与进来的人员,它都是一直在变化的。虽然很多工作是这样的,但在这个方向它又尤其有这个,跟随社会发生的一些事情的一个问题意识变化而变化的东西。

Staff

Host: Cleo CHEN
Contact Person: Cleo CHEN
Planner: Cleo CHEN
Text: Cleo CHEN
Translator: Jiaqi GAO
Proofreading: Rebecca TUTTHILL, Calum BAIRD

 

Synthesis of Traditional Chinese Techniques with Contemporary styles

Qian ZHAO  & Pengyu ZHU , Zixu CHEN  赵乾 & 朱鹏宇, 陈子绪

After experiencing the pandemic, they have changed from focussing on the ideal to reality in their daily lives. In terms of their artworks, they have all changed from reality to the ideal. Qian ZHAO, Pengyu ZHU and Zixu CHEN were from the same Chinese university but majored in completely different fields—landscape architecture and Chinese painting, but their creations during 2020 all tend to combine Chinese Tradition and Contemporary art techniques and ideas.

经历了疫情时代,他们在生活中都从理想变得现实。而在创作中,又都从现实变得理想。赵乾、朱鹏宇和陈子绪来自同一所中国高校,学习截然不同的专业 —— 景观建筑和中国画,但最后的创作都走向了中国传统与现代的结合。

Qi Zhao赵乾 & Pengyu Zhu朱鹏宇
Make A Dream 作梦, Qian Zhao 赵乾 & Pengyu Zhu 朱鹏宇, 2020
Zixu Chen 陈子绪
坐看云起时 116×166cm 纸本水墨, Zixu Chen 陈子绪, 2020
Zixu Chen 陈子绪
自由生长-山海 48×15cm×6 纸本水墨, Zixu Chen 陈子绪, 2020
Zixu Chen 陈子绪
无题1 69×138cm 纸本水墨, Zixu Chen 陈子绪, 2020
Zixu Chen 陈子绪
无题2 69×138cm 纸本水墨, Zixu Chen 陈子绪, 2020
Zixu Chen 陈子绪
关于过去,关于未来 69×138cm 纸本水墨, Zixu Chen 陈子绪, 2020
Zixu Chen 陈子绪
景区-云上 49×74.5 纸本水墨, Zixu Chen 陈子绪, 2020
Zixu Chen 陈子绪
景区-雨袭来 48×49.5 纸本水墨, Zixu Chen 陈子绪, 2020
Zixu Chen 陈子绪
景区-观景台 97×70cm 纸本水墨, Zixu Chen 陈子绪, 2020
Zixu Chen 陈子绪
景区-入山 82×67cm 纸本水墨, Zixu Chen 陈子绪, 2020

Biography

Qian ZHAO, Pengyu ZHU: Students of Landscape Architecture at Renmin University of China

赵乾、朱鹏宇,中国人民大学景观建筑专业在读学生

Zixu CHEN: Young Artist – MFA Chinese Painting in Chinese National Academy of Arts

陈子绪,青年艺术家 – 中国艺术研究院中国画系研究生

Interview with Zhao & Zhu

The names would be abbreviated as “Cleo” (Cleo CHEN), “ZHAO” (Qian ZHAO) and “ZHU” (Pengyu ZHU).

(之后姓名分别写为“陈昕”、“赵乾”、“鹏宇”)

Cleo: Can you tell us how you organised your life and work during this time? What has been changed?

ZHAO: Before the pandemic, we were in the same class and dormitory at school, so it was easy for us to communicate with each other. The outbreak occurred during our winter vacation, so we could only talk online and at home. My schedule was mostly involved writing papers or graduation projects during the day and then busying myself with other things at night.

ZHU: At that time, the pandemic was serious and the virus was spreading, so I tried not to go outside, and I also felt a little panicky. I seemed to repeat the same routine every day—like searching for materials or creating my artworks at home. The most significant change in this time that I noticed was that everyone around me was now wearing masks.

ZHAO: Now our vaccine programme has been administered widely, and with this, our life has basically returned to normal. Except for we need to report upon entering or leaving our school but there are really not too many restrictions at all.

ZHU: Our lives had returned to normal last summer, but it resurged again last winter.

陈昕:在新冠期间,你们是如何组织工作和生活的?与新冠之前有何不同?

赵乾:疫情前我们在学校是一个班,还是一个宿舍的,所以交流起来很方便。疫情期间是寒假,所以一直在线上沟通,白天写论文做毕业设计,晚上忙自己的事。

鹏宇:当时新冠比较严重,正处于上升期,尽量不出门,心里有点恐慌。每天都在家里找资料做作品。与新冠前的不同是出门身边的人都带着口罩。

赵乾:现在国内疫苗开始大面积接种,气温上升,生活也基本已经恢复正常了。除了进出学校需要报备之类的,已经没有太多的限制。

鹏宇:去年夏天就基本恢复疫情前的生活了,只是冬天又反弹。

Cleo: What changes have you experienced or discovered in this time? Whether it is in your life or your creative work? What do you think is your pivot to cope with the pandemic?

ZHAO: Being able to go out was the aspect of my life that was mainly affected, especially long-distance travelling. We were also asked to show the QR code pass whenever entering or exiting the busy areas. There were also restrictions that limited the number of people that could do activities indoors meaning that our sources of entertainment were limited.

ZHU: In this period too, I think the public has become more disciplined. For instance, people would agreeably wear masks or monitor temperature when getting on the bus but it also felt quieter not only at the bus station but in many places.

My mind has also changed a lot, I used to think that I could get what I want only through my own efforts, but now I find that my world can be affected by many other external factors. What is more, my goal was clearer, I would plan everything in advance prior to the pandemic.

ZHAO: Many unexpected things happened during the pandemic, like not knowing when we would be going back to school, for example. I used to think of myself as an idealistic person, this period made me become more realistic in my daily life but, in art, it has gone the other way from reality to ideal.

陈昕:你们经历过或发现的变化是什么?无论是生活还是创作都可以谈谈。你们认为自己在疫情下的的转折点是什么?(关键问题)

赵乾:生活上是出行受到影响。尤其是远距离的旅行,进出景点需要查二维码,室内的活动有人数流量限制,感觉娱乐活动受限。

鹏宇:公共场合的纪律性变强了。就像人们上公交车前就会把口罩戴好,测体温。不只是在公交车站,在很多地方都感觉群众变安静,纪律性变强了。生活上的事情也改变了我的想法,以前觉得通过自己努力就可以得到想要的,现在发现还有很多其他因素的影响。感觉自己的目标更清晰了,做什么事都应该提前打算。

赵乾:疫情期间很多事情都是突如其来的,像返校时间的反复。感觉自己以前是理想主义的人,疫情让我在生活中变得现实,但在艺术上是从现实变得理想。

Cleo: When did you start to create the artwork Dreaming?

ZHAO: We started this at the beginning of last March. Previously, everyone was optimistic and felt that the virus, the pandemic, everything like that would be over soon. Hence, when it came to the theme of our graduation project in mid-March, I decided that I would like to create an idealistic surrealist artwork, and the work was finished at the end of last May.

陈昕:你们什么时候开始构思《作梦》这个作品的?

赵乾:在3月初开始构思的。一开始大家都很乐观感觉很快就可以消失,3月中定毕设主题的时候,就想做一个理想化的、超现实的作品。在5月底完成了这个作品。

Cleo: I noticed that you are students majoring in landscape design, so what inspired you to create the artwork? Why did you choose to build amusement facilities beyond the Forbidden City (The Forbidden City, as the palace of Chinese Emperors during the Qing Dynasty of Chinese history) rather than beyond other sites?

ZHU: Both of us were art students and we used to paint. Therefore, we would pursue aesthetics and artistry first and, then, we would plan the details when making the landscape which would have the look of architecture about it.

The context of the work was during the increasing severity of the pandemic period. The meaning behind the work, then, was that we hoped that the people who lived in isolation could go outdoors, so the whole building was in sharp contrast with the solemnity of The Forbidden City.

ZHAO: The Forbidden City was closed after the outbreak. So, we used our skills to design and install a temporary landscape for the future for people to enjoy and play to cope with emergencies of the pandemic. It also had the contrast that Pengyu ZHU mentioned before, that the atmosphere of The Forbidden City was very solemn but the one of an amusement park was lively. There was also a contrast between the material selected for this piece – wood and steel which represented the conflict between history and the present. We mainly used this contrast to express the aesthetic and quality differences.

陈昕:我注意到你们是景观设计专业的学生,是什么启发你们着手进行该艺术品的创作?为什么选择把游乐设施建于故宫之上?而不是基于别的景象?

鹏宇:我两都是艺术生出身,以前都是画画的。在景观设计中,第一会追求美观和艺术性,第二做景观的时候会抠细节,会做得像建筑。这个作品的背景也处于疫情上升期,我们是希望居家隔离的居民可以到户外活动,整个建筑和庄严的故宫形成鲜明的对比。

赵乾:故宫在疫情一开始就关闭了。所以我们就利用专业给未来设计一种装置、临时性景观,符合疫情这样的突发情况,可以供人们游玩观赏。还有就是鹏宇说的对比,故宫氛围庄严,游乐场活泼。在景观选材也是有对比的,木头和钢铁,也是历史性和现代化的对比。用对比去表达这样的氛围。

Cleo: In my view, this work also implied that the country was still very optimistic about the pandemic at the beginning. The Forbidden City symbolised the general environment of China while the thoughts of the mass of people were reflected in the amusement park. There is a tangible contradiction between enclosure and optimism.

ZHAO: Yes, it also meant that no matter what kind of difficulties we’re encountering, we could overcome them with a positive attitude.

ZHU: Yeah it felt like the pandemic was a depressing topic, and the pressure of it all might be eased a bit by making an amusement park.

陈昕:在我个人看来,这个作品也有在暗喻国内对疫情一开始还是很乐观的。因为故宫象征中国的大环境,群众的心态则体现在游乐场上,就里面是有乐观和矛盾的心态的。

赵乾:对也有这一层意思,就感觉无论遇到什么样的困难都可以用一种乐观的心态去应对吧。

鹏宇:就觉得疫情是压抑的话题,做成游乐场就有更轻松的一个感觉。

Cleo: What does this work mean to you, then?

ZHU: It represents the end of our undergraduate studies. Then, same as its name, it is a design that emerges from our lived reality but carries our fantasy of The Forbidden City which is illusory and exaggerated.

ZHAO: I agree but, what is more, it is also an attempt at something new. Our previous projects were very realistic but, with this design, we have tried a totally new form of expression—to exaggerate without any restrictions.

陈昕:《作梦》这件作品对你们来说意味着什么?

鹏宇:代表大学学习的结束,其次这个作品和名字一样虚幻、夸张,它是脱离实际的设计,承载着我们对故宫的幻想。

赵乾:我也差不多,但也是一种新的尝试。之前的项目都很现实,这个毕设就想尝试一个新的表现形式,就夸张一点,不受限制太多。

Cleo: Since this work is still very different from the Beijing Folk House Museum that you had created before, so does this mean that you want to develop more in the field of contemporary art? If so, which direction will you take?

ZHU: Actually no, I would still like to be a designer in the future.

ZHAO: I have not thought too much about it yet. I like to experiment and I do not want to be confined in a simple style. All of my previous projects are different from each other.

陈昕:因为这件作品和你们之前的设计的北京民居博物馆还是很不一样的。你们是有想往当代艺术的领域发展吗?那么你们比较想关注的是什么主题呢?

鹏宇:没有,以后还是会做设计师。

赵乾:没细想。我喜欢尝试,不想禁锢在一个风格,以前的项目每个都不一样。

Cleo: How did the pandemic affect your work?

ZHAO: The pandemic mainly impacted the form of the work I did which changed from face-to-face communication to being online. This meant that it was very easy for any information about work to be delayed and that always generated many different issues. And, also, the issues I have mentioned before.

ZHU: The biggest issue was travelling. The health QR code, temperature monitoring, and wearing a mask were quite time-consuming. Mentally, I was sort of concerned at first, but then I got used to the online classes and they even felt quite fulfilling and convenient.

陈昕:新冠对你们的工作有什么样影响?

赵乾:主要是工作形式。从面对面交流,到线上交流,容易消息传达不及时和出现矛盾。还有就是之前提到的出行不便。

鹏宇:最大还是出行的问题。因为健康码、测体温、戴口罩还是挺繁琐的。心理上刚开始有点恐慌,后来习惯线上上课感觉也挺充实、方便的。

Cleo: Has has your perception of art changed since the pandemic? If so, how, exactly?

ZHAO: In fact, there have not been many changes. Art and design were both means of expressing ideas and could reflect current social situations or existing problems. There were some changes in my mindset like, when creating landscapes, we would take this problem into consideration—whether we could have previously prevented some issues that may arise in the future.

ZHU: I feel art has become more fundamental. I used to think of art as something like caviar— it was something only the upper-class people played with and enjoyed, and there is nothing useful about it. After enduring this period, I have found a lot of artistic ideas which emerged from these events, and this made me truly feel that art and real-life were closely related, and art was not just for entertainment.

陈昕:从第一次接触艺术开始,或者在新冠之前,你们对艺术的感觉现在是否发生了变化?具体是什么?

赵乾:没有特别多的变化。艺术和设计都是表达想法的手段,可以去反映一些当代的社会背景和问题。思想上有一些变化,以后会在做景观的时候,更多地会考虑到能不能提前预防未来可能会出现的一些问题。

鹏宇:感觉艺术变得真实了。以前觉得艺术就是阳春白雪、虚无缥缈,是上流人士才玩的东西。疫情爆发后有看到描绘抗疫,抗击西方对中国的诋毁。我可以真实感受到艺术和现实生活是息息相关的,觉得艺术不只是停留在人们的观赏上了。

Cleo: Do you think art would tend to be more online in the future? What might be the relationship between technology and Art in your opinion?

ZHU: Only part of it will go online. It is still the most intuitive way for art to be appreciated physically and, because of this art is something that cannot be copied. Although art can be shared more quickly online, physical exhibitions will still remain mainstream, I think.

Their relationship to me is that art inspires technological development, whether it is through its human application or its design but, in turn, technology will support the innovation of artistic methods for creating and performing.

ZHAO: My ideas are kind of similar to Pengyu ZHU. Like paintings or sculptures, it is very difficult to transfer them online. For example, there may be colour deviations or picture distortions that would be very different to the physical appearance and experience. However, landscape architecture might pivot online.

As for the relationship between technology and art, I think they are complementary to each other. In China, VR, modelling software, virtual exhibiting space and exhibition halls are all being developed in tandem. One day, there might be new art forms along these lines introduced in the future.

ZHU: Being physical and up close to art is still the best way of immersing ourselves in art and feeling its charm.

陈昕:你们认为新冠之后艺术会转向线上吗?科技和艺术的关系在你们看来是什么样的?

鹏宇:只会一部分转向线上。欣赏艺术还是在线下用眼睛看到最为直观,体验无法复制。线上可以及时传播,但线下还是主流。他们的关系在我看来艺术启发着科学发展,无论是人性化、功能性的设计也好,但反过来科技会支持艺术的创新。

赵乾:我的想法和鹏宇类似。像绘画和雕塑很难转移到线上,或许有色差,变形,和直观感受还是不一样的。建筑景观或许会转向线上。科技和艺术感觉是相辅相成的吧。像国内都在探索VR,建模软件,虚拟空间和展厅,在未来或许可以推演出新的艺术形式。

鹏宇:还是身临其境才能感受到艺术的魅力。

 

Interview with Chen

The names would be abbreviated as “Cleo” (Cleo CHEN) and “CHEN” (Zixu CHEN).

(之后姓名分别写为“陈昕”、“子绪”)

Cleo: How did you do with your life and work during the pandemic? What was changed from before?

CHEN: The outbreak happened during my senior year of college, and I was preparing for my graduation and the preliminary examination for postgraduate. According to the pandemic, the examination was delayed to be held in May or June. Simultaneously, Heilongjiang which is the city I located in was always on lockdown, so as a result of all things mentioned above, I was very depressed those days, the only thing I could do was keep studying.

陈昕:在新冠期间,你是如何组织工作和生活的?与新冠之前有什么不同?

子绪:疫情前是大四,在准备毕业创作和考研初试,考研因为疫情一直拖到5-6月份。当时在东北黑龙江一直在封锁,那段时间很压抑,就一直在学习。

Cleo: Could you talk about the changes you’ve found or experienced during this period? What’s your Pivot like?

CHEN: My normal life has changed a lot. My high school was in Beijing so I seldom wanted to go back because I was used to living independently. However, I became accustomed to staying at home which caused by the pandemic this year. As for my Art creating, I’ve changed my material from colourful ink to wash painting. I have experienced a hard time doing this because my colourful ink paintings were based on sketching, so I could only create wash paintings due to there was no way for me to sketch with the condition of lockdown. I was used to painting with colourful ink, so at first, I felt particularly dull when painting washes painting which only had one colour of black, which actually just in line with my mood at the time. As a result, my later paintings had some elements of the swimming person or lifebuoys.

陈昕:你经历过或发现的变化是什么?你认为自己在疫情下的的转折点是什么?

子绪:生活上变化很大,初中在北京,不想回家。疫情这一年在家就习惯了。在创作上对材料的运用经历从彩墨到水墨的变化。疫情有段时间心情低迷。彩墨绘画我是基于写生,疫情没办法写生,就又回到水墨。水墨的黑白感觉特别的闷,符合当时的心情,所以后来创作的画面也出现了游泳小人和救生圈的元素。

Cleo: When did you start to conceive the work of Settled to Look on the Emerging Clouds《坐看云起时》, Growing Freely-Mountains and Seas 《自由生长 – 山海》, and the Scenic Spot series artwork《景区》?

CHEN: The “Growing Freely” series artworks have started long before, I think it has represented the status of my art creation—some of my paintings were conceived previously while some totally weren’t. I always painted by following my vague feeling, I’d like to pile up elements in my mind, so each element was like a USB flash drive of my memory. “Growing Freely” means that I would start with a tree or a mountain, and then gradually growing out of them with significance.

Settled to Look On the Emerging Clouds was the work I created after graduating. Chinese ancient painting was very different from the West which emphasized forms and colours of paintings. Chinese painting focused on the vivid quality flowing inside the painting. Talking about this, I’d like to emphasize the feature of “vivid quality flowing inside”. Aiming of performing that, I try the painting technique of arranging rows after rows, it was also an attempt of experimenting with the traditional space painting approaches. The sharp peaks painted in the”Mountains and Seas” were like the thorns in my life, so after drawing the thorns “out”, I felt much better than before. The Scenic Spot was the work I’ve just started to work on. This work was inspired by the Taihang Mountain and the Sanya Forest Park that I go for sketching a while ago. Mountains performed in the Chinese ancient painting were mostly innominate ones, but nowadays, most of our painting elements were taken from the scenes spots. Therefore, the work was done. What satisfied me more were the little person standing on the bridge and the viewing platform they were more appealing to me according to my aesthetic standard.

The Scenic Spot was the work I’ve just started to work on. This work was inspired by the Taihang Mountain and the Sanya Forest Park where I went sketching once a while ago. Mountains depicted in Chinese ancient painting were mostly unidentified ones but nowadays, most of our painting elements are from scenic spots. What satisfied me most about this work was the little person standing on the bridge and the viewing platform, they were more appealing to me and my aesthetic standard.

陈昕:你从什么时候开始构思《坐看云起时》、《自由生长-山海》、《景区》等这一系列作品的?

子绪:《自由生长》这个系列很早就开始了,它代表着我创作的状态。我画画有的是提前构思,有的没有构思。我是照着模糊的感觉去画的,我会堆砌元素,每个元素就像是寄托我记忆的U盘。《自由生长》我会从一棵树、一座山开始,然后慢慢生发出来。

《坐看云起时》是我毕业创作的一幅作品。中国古代的绘画和西方有很大的不同,西方讲形色。中国讲气韵生动、气流,我想强调气流,所以尝试用一排一排的手法去表达里面的气和势,这也是我对传统空间的尝试。《山海》里尖尖的山峰就像是生活里的刺,画起来感觉内心会好受一些。然后《景区》是我最近开始的,之前去太行山和三亚的森林公园写生,以前国画的山都是无名山,现在就去的是景区比较多。我比较满意桥上的小人和观景台,是在审美上对我比较有吸引力的。

Cleo: Among all these works, which one do you like best? and why? What has inspired you to create it?

CHEN: I used to like Settled to Look On the Emerging Clouds most because it has my mood and status during my vacation. In addition, because it took a while to paint, it has collected various elements of different painting techniques or languages making it more complete. Whereas now, my favourite is the Viewing Platform, and later, I would like to keep adding the element of the small person depicted in the painting. In terms of inspiration, I admire the brushstrokes of Western oil paintings. I also like Baroque and Impressionist paintings, so later I may enrich my paintings with these sorts of references.

陈昕:你最喜欢哪幅作品,对你来说意味着什么?是什么启发你着手进行这系列的艺术品的创作?

子绪:之前最喜欢《坐看云起时》,它记录我整个假期的状态。画了很久,集合了很多绘画语言,感觉比较完整。现在最喜欢《观景台》,小人元素后期还想继续发展。关于启发,我喜欢看西方油画有笔触的感觉,我也很喜欢巴洛克、印象派的画,想用西方的笔触去丰富画面。

Cleo: I found that these works were very different from the previous sketches, so do you want to go into the field of contemporary art later? If so, which sort of art theme do you want to focus on?

CHEN: I am longing to go into contemporary art. Chinese landscape paintings mainly emphasising the looks of paintings, sometimes I get tired of this aesthetic, so I want to make my pictures look like works that focus on our contemporary world and which cares more about the different meanings of our lives.

European artists such as Gerhard Richter and Anselm Kiefer both suffered a lot during childhood, so their artworks can be viewed as giving us a sense of reflection, guilt, or anger, which are really powerful ideas to convey. However, I am living a normal life, so I often feel that my paintings are too mediocre. I tried living in an intense and extreme manner, but I found it hard for me to use painting to record my reality and ideas. As a result, I may still focus on the expression in the picture itself at the moment.

At present, I still want to imitate more iconic paintings and many contemporary paintings are inspired by ancient themes. Like Lei XU, an artist who aims to promote the spatial feelings expressed in Chinese Landscape Paintings and his paintings are very novel by use of this method. I see this as a great example of a method for generating a symbiosis between the contemporary and the traditional. I thought a lot about this recently, and I feel there are many different potential ways I can pursue these ideas.

陈昕:因为这些创作作品和之前的写生还是很不一样的,你是有想往当代艺术的领域发展吗?那么你比较想关注的是什么主题呢?

子绪:我很向往当代艺术。中国的山水画如果一直强调画面本体,或许会有审美疲惫。我希望我的画面看起来像是关注生活的现代人画的作品。

像西方艺术家,里希特和基弗童年都遭遇过不幸,他们的作品就有一种反思、愧疚、或愤怒,蕴含着很大的能力在画面里。我自己成长历程比较风平浪静,就感觉自己画的东西很平庸,我在尽量让自己极端,但发现很难记录对社会现状的理解。我可能还是会关注画面语言的本身。

目前还想多临摹,中国很多当代绘画都是从非常远古的东西去找的。像南京画家徐累去找中国空间的感觉,用得好的话就非常新颖,就很当代,也是对传统的反思。最近想的很多,感觉路径很多。

Cleo: How does the pandemic impact your art creation?

CHEN: The pandemic presented me with some barriers, and this period also represents my Pivot from undergraduate to postgraduate. Before the pandemic, I lived carefree like being in an ivory tower, but I was forced to pivot to become pragmatic and think about how to make money because my family was suffering from financial pressure.

In response, I developed my learning to focus more on which styles were popular in national exhibitions, and drawing more completely, in order to find a job. Owing to the fact that holding a solo exhibition or academic exhibition was not as convenient as the national exhibitions, I also thought about developing a fixed painting language at this time. It was a hard period, and I found that I work that I once felt satisfied with later revealed itself to me as something which was not what I wanted or intended to produce. Therefore, I had to adapt again to focus on my mood and surroundings, and I’m trying to let myself be satisfied in any given situation.

陈昕:新冠对你的工作有什么样影响?

子绪:疫情让我有一些挫折。因为疫情也是我大学到研究生的转折点。新冠以前上大学的时候,感觉自己在象牙塔里无忧无虑;新冠之后家里有一点经济压力,我变得功利,就在思考怎么画赚钱。就想去学国展上流行的画风,画得完整些,就为了找工作方便。办个展或学术展都没有国展方便。我在思考是不是要寻找固定的语言。那段时期比较难受,之前画的每一张都很满意,现在感觉就不太对了。我创作还是会基于心境和环境的变化吧。这几年在努力让自己任何情况下都画的很满意。

Cleo: Has your perception of art been changed now since the pandemic, and can you talk about these changes?

CHEN: At first, I did not think too much about art, it was just something aesthetic. This thought shifted changed during my second year of high school, though, when I went to the Chinese Academy of Fine Art High School. During my studies, I discovered that Art has a huge impact on our society and does so in a lot of amazing ways, for example, in Western Art history, there is the impact of the Renaissance, Romanticism, etc. To my surprise, Chinese Art had a period of realism, similar to this, which also left behind a positive legacy. I also came to feel the Religious power involved in art when I took up my studies. As for contemporary art, I am developing a technique whereby I try to make my work reflect society from an artistic, aesthetic point of view.

陈昕:从第一次接触艺术开始,或者在新冠之前,你对艺术的感觉现在是否发生了变化?是什么?

子绪:刚开始画画的没想太多,是初二,去考央美附中,当时觉得画画就只是画画,是一个审美的东西。后来发现艺术对于社会来说真的很重要。我也喜欢西方美术史,文艺复兴,浪漫主义。中国也有现实主义的时期,当时也起到很有积极的影响。就能感受到美术的宗教力量。不光是审美的东西,还有很多社会性在里面。想到当代艺术,就还在思考我的作品是要反映对社会的理解,还是从审美出发,画一座好看的山还是什么的。这是我目前在思考的问题。

Cleo: Do you think art will be predominantly online after this period? What is the relationship between technology and art in your opinion?

CHEN: There are many more online exhibitions and each one keeps getting better than the last. And also, the maturity of online art courses is helpful for art’s dissemination.

On the relationship between art and technology, the development of photography has helped art’s development rather than just being a tool of recording a moment and has contributed to art technologically. For instance, an example from history, the moment of the ballerina lifting her leg in Degas‘s painting, The Ballet Class (La Classe de danse), was probably aided with the help of a camera. The printing technique produced photo albums which helped art’s education a lot. So, to end and, in my opinion, the development of technology has smashed down barriers to aid art’s development and I think this will continue.

陈昕:你认为新冠之后艺术会转向线上吗?科技和艺术的关系在你看来是什么样的?

子绪:首先是线上的展览越来越多,越做越好。其次,艺术网课的成熟对艺术传播是一件好事。此外,照片的出现导致观看的方式不一样,对创作也产生很大影响。德加把人直接切一半的构图,芭蕾舞演员抬腿的瞬间很可能是借助照相机,照相机可以把现场的瞬间捕捉得更深入。画册的出现让学习艺术变得更方便了,总的来说,就是科技的发展让学习艺术的门槛降低了吧。

Staff

Host: Cleo CHEN
Contact Person: Ifance FAN, Cleo CHEN
Planner: Cleo CHEN
Text: Cleo CHEN
Translator: Jiaqi GAO
Proofreading: Calum BAIRD

 

Networks for Connecting

Tsitra PARK & Shawn NAYAR

Shawn: “without the whirlwind of energy around me, I had to look inwards to find a way to drive me forward, and to translate that into an artwork that was accessible in this day and age. So transform all my work into digital work.”

Tsitra: “the biggest change to adapt to was making work internally, there was a lot of insular thinking, as opposed to being a part of something bigger. We are probably creating the most interesting dialogue in the every day, there are constant pivots and we are constantly aware of them.”

With a combined interest in communication and digital aesthetics, Tsitra Park and Shawn Nayar’s curatorial venture [INSERT ART HERE] develops emerging ideas and methods of making art to create an intimate and engaging experience in a time of isolation.

[INSERT ART HERE]

[INSERT ART HERE]

[INSERT ART HERE]

[INSERT ART HERE]

 

Curated by Shawn Nayar and Tsitra Park

Featuring: Claire Bath, Amelia Clark, Emmanuelle Garcia, Fiona Gordon, Ellie Home, Tabi Hull, Jesse Klassen, Roibí O’Rua, Katherine Stanley, Saffy Stott, and Rowan Walker.

[INSERT ART HERE] is an online exhibition hosted on Zoom. Between the 12th and the 14th of March, the event featured 13 artists across Europe and North America, each combining a green morph suit with Zoom green-screen technology to embody their work in new ways.

[INSERT ART HERE] website with more information that you can access here:

https://insertarthere.cargo.site/

Biography

Shawn Nayar is a practising artist and curator from India who is currently based in Newcastle upon Tyne. His practice traverses digital platforms and media to explore queer and erotic club culture. Amalgamating personal experiences from the club scene with a deeper exploration into the role of POC within the gay community, Shawn creates work to depict and engage a community isolated due to lockdown.

Tsitra Park negotiates dialogues of privacy and identity in the realm of social media, with work that interrogates the role of the individual and art-making in the digital context. Based in Edinburgh, they use their curatorial and art practice as a means by which to engage and unpack new contexts as art and artists adapt to an evolving world.

Shawn Nayar 是一位来自印度的实验艺术家、策展人,目前居住于泰恩河(Tyne)畔的纽卡斯尔(Newcastle)。其艺术创作致力于,跨越不同的数字媒体平台,对“酷儿”(Queer)与 “色情俱乐部” (erotic club)等文化领域进行探索。

Tsitra Park,一位来自爱丁堡的艺术家,其艺术创作目前致力于在社交媒体上进行有关个人隐私和身份的对话,并试图去探讨在数字化语境中的个体和艺术创作。他们以爱丁堡为基地,利用他们的策展和艺术实践作为一种手段,在艺术和艺术家适应一个不断发展的世界时,参与并开拓了新的领域。

Interview

Interviewer: Hello everyone, and welcome to R-Lab and our interviews. My name is Velia Cavallini and I’m here with Tsitra Park and Shawn Nayar, and I’ll let them introduce themselves.

Interviewer: 大家好,欢迎大家来到R-Lab的采访环节,我的名字是Velia Cavallini,我将采访的是 Tsitra Park 和 Shawn Nayar,接下来让他们为大家做一下自我介绍。

Tsitra: Hi, I’m Tsitra Park, I’m currently based in Edinburgh, I am an artist and curator and I work with ideas of dialogue between social media and the public sphere at the moment. Together with Shawn Nayar we created [INSERT ART HERE].

Tsitra: 大家好,我是Tsitra Park, 目前居住于爱丁堡,我是一名艺术家和策展人,目前我致力于社交媒体 和公共领域之间的对话。我与Shawn Nayar一起创作了[INSERT ART HERE] 。

Shawn: My name is Shawn Nayar. I am an artist from India who is currently based in Newcastle upon Tyne in England and my practice is really interested in queer culture, particularly in queer club culture. And I look and research and explore the place that people of colour have within the gay community and within this really vibrant culture. And yes, together with Tsitra we’ve worked really hard to create [INSERT ART HERE]

Shawn: 我的名字是Shawn Nayar. 我是一位来自印度的艺术家,目前在英国泰恩河畔的纽卡斯尔工作,我对酷儿文化非常感兴趣,特别是酷儿俱乐部文化。我致力于观察、研究和探索有色人种在同性恋社区和这个充满活力的文化中的地位。并且,如你所⻅,我和Tsitra一起创造了 [INSERT ART HERE]

I: For the first few minutes we’re going to focus on your lives as and then we’re going to go into discussing your artwork. So, how did you organize your life and your work during this pandemic?

I: 在采访初始阶段,我们将采访重点聚焦于你们的生活,然后我们将讨论你的作品。那么,在这次疫情期间,你是如何安排你的生活和工作的呢?

S: I guess during this pandemic it was a lot about trying to find the artwork that drove me. Before I was surrounded in this really lovely chaos of the art world, there was um inspiration everywhere from art galleries to people around you and suddenly just being isolated and alone without all of this whirlwind of energy to keep driving you forward you have to have to look inwards to find a way to drive me forward. So it was a lot about studying myself and finding a way to translate that into artwork that was accessible in this isolated age so transforming my work into digital work.

S: 我想在疫情期间,我很想找到能够驱使我前进的艺术品。在我被包围在这个非常可爱却又混乱的艺术世界之前,到处都有灵感,从美术馆到你周围的人。突然之间,我的周围只剩下孤立和孤独,这些孤立和孤独就像是无法抵挡的旋⻛,促使我必须向内心看去,才能找到一种方法来驱动我前进。所以,我要做的就是研究我自己,并找到一种方法,将其转化为在这个与世隔绝的时代可以让他人获得的艺术品,因此我将我的作品转化为了数字作品。

T: I found that it took a little time to get used to work in the pandemic and I think my immediate response was to develop a sort of routine and just to do something, to create work and not necessarily think about what I was making, or what I was trying to make, and just doing. And that developed then into ideas.

T: 我花了不少时间来适应这次的疫情,我认为,疫情发生时,我的第一反应是制定一种常规,那便是,去是做一些事情,创造一些作品。不一定要深切思考我在做什么,或我试图做什么,仅仅只是去做、去实践。于是就发展成了更多的想法。

I: And what do you think is the biggest change that you had to go through, or the biggest change that you have found yourself stumbling into?

I: 你们认为你们必须经历的最大的改变是什么,或者你们发现自己在疫情期间最大的改变是什么?

T: I’d say that the biggest change has been the lack of everyday communication that you never really planned with people, the kind of the interactions when you’d just be in the studio and someone would walk past, or just on your daily commute where you’d see someone doing something weird that will kind of stem your brain into thinking different things. And the change has been that you’re making work, like Shawn said, internally a lot, so there’s a lot of insular thinking as opposed to being part of something bigger.

T: 我想说最大的变化是,你从未真正计划过的并且一直缺失的与人的日常交流,例如,当你在演播室里 有人走过时的那种寒暄与互动,或者只是在你每天上下班的路上,你会看到有人做一些奇怪的事情,这 会吸引你的注意并且让你的大脑因为这些事开始思考不同的事情。另外,改变是你在做的工作,就像肖 恩说的,在内心中做了很多工作。所以有很多孤立的想法,而不是成为更大事情的一部分。

S: I think the biggest change for me is that I’ve been actively seeking out communication and talking to other artists. Because initially I was taking, like as Tsitra said, those walks through the studios and seeing something which sparks your brain, just random conversations in the hallway. I completely took those for granted, so now when I was completely deprived of all of those I’ve been actively trying to recapture that. So it’s been calling artists to have meetings, randomly outreach, messaging and such. Essentially, it’s me bombarding all the artists I know being like ‘hi how are you’ and trying to force them into having dialogues just to keep conversations going, to get those cogs really going. Even if it’s not even at an art level, even just a social level, just to get some sort of communication going.

S: 我认为对我来说最大的改变是,我一直在积极寻求与其他艺术家的交流和沟通。因为一开始我就像 Tsitra说的那样,在工作室里走来走去,看到一些能激发你大脑的东⻄,只是在走廊里随意交谈。我认为沟通与交流是理所当然的,所以当我被完全剥夺了这些时,我一直在积极尝试重新夺回。所以我一直在给艺术家们打电话,让他们开会,随机宣传,传递信息等等。从本质上说,是我炮轰所有我认识的艺术家,像“嗨,你好吗”,并试图迫使他们进行对话,只是为了让我们的对话继续下去,让那些⻮轮继续转动。即使不是在艺术层面,只是社会层面,也要进行某种交流。

T: I think really grabbing onto the digital sphere as well, and like bouncing off what Shawn said is quite important in that, how do we still re-establish that connection that we’ve kind of lost. So I think uh both of us have been seeing how we can use this new world to our advantage.

T: 我认为要重视和抓住数字领域,就像从Shawn的话中体现出来的一样,我们如何重新建立我们已经失去的联系是非常重要的。所以我想我们俩都看到了如何利用这个新世界为我们带来好处。

S: Yeah.

S: 是的.

T: I mean, I think that the world is constantly changing anyway isn’t it? And I think actually what’s funny about this is that there was one big change, and now it feels like the world isn’t really changing. So you’re much more aware of your own pivots, because we’re probably creating the most interesting dialogue in the everyday. So I definitely think that there are constant pivots, and we’re constantly aware of them, because we’re now our own stimulus and our own world, in a sense.

T: 我认为世界本就是在不断变化,不是吗?我觉得有趣的是,疫情曾经给我们带来很大的改变,但现在却感觉世界并没有真正改变。所以你更清楚你自己的“转变”,因为我们可能在创造每天最有趣的对话。所以我肯定地认为,只有不断的“转变”,我们不断地意识到这些“转变”,在某种意义上,我们现在是自己在刺激我们自己的世界。

S: I have definitely noticed that my pivots change depending on my emotions, and how I’m feeling. Because I’m always trying to have this outrageous outgoing-ness, but then whenever I’m feeling down or I just got a lot of work that I need to do, I have this recluse and my pivot becomes internal. I’m like ‘okay, I’ve got this work that I need to do, that I need to develop’. So, it sort of comes in, and then I want to reach out again, get some more inspiration. It’s definitely oscillating, depending on how I’m feeling between the internal and the external. And that’s definitely a really important, pivotal change during this pandemic.

S: 我确实注意到,我的“转变”会随着我的情绪和感觉而变化。因为我总是想让自己变得很外向,但每当 我情绪低落或者有很多工作要做的时候,我就会有一个隐居的地方,我的“转变”就会变成内在的。我会说‘好吧,我有工作要做,要发展’。所以,它到来了,然后我想再次伸出援手,得到更多的灵感。它肯定是振聋发聩的,这取决于我对内在和外在的感觉。在这次疫情期间,这无疑是一个非常重要的关键性变化。

I: So, as artists, what is your most proud creation since the beginning of the pandemic?

I: 那么,作为艺术家,疫情爆发以来,你最自豪和骄傲的创作是什么?

S: Honestly, [INSERT ART HERE], and for me personally another project that I’m doing, Freaky Deeks. For both of them it’s less about the work – the work is still amazing and I love what I’ve got out there – but what has really drawn me into it has been the audience, and the artist networks that we’ve created, so the places where artists can talk together, create work together, collaborate, talk. And even audiences, using platforms to see our work but to also talk amongst each other. So, I think that’s what I’m most proud of, creating the networks between audiences and artists, for sure.

S: 老实讲,[INSERT ART HERE], 我同时也在做另一个项目叫Freaky Deeks。对我们来说,令人惊叹并不是作品最重要的,我喜欢的是,我在项目中获得的意义,其中真正吸引我的是观众,以及我们创建的艺术家网络。艺术家可以在这里一起交谈,一起创作,合作,交谈。即使是观众,也可以通过平台观看我们的作品,也可以相互交流。所以,我想这是我最自豪的,即创造观众和艺术家之间的网络。

T: I think that would stand for both of us. [INSERT ART HERE] has been a big part of both of our works this year, it has kind of transformed the way that our own individual practices work, but also the way that we interact with others. And I feel like the idea has caused others to kind of have a bounce point as well and to reconsider their own practice. And we’ve had a lot of feedback from that which has felt really great. So, I’d say that’s what we’re both most proud of, hence why we wanted to put forwards for R-Lab.

T: 我想这对我们俩都有好处。今年的 [INSERT ART HERE] 是我们两个作品的重要组成部分,它在某种程度上改变了我们个人实践的方式,也改变了我们与他人互动的方式。我觉得这个想法让其他人也有了一个“转变”,并能重新考虑自己的做法。我们收到了很多反馈,感觉非常棒。所以,我想说,这是我们最引以为豪的,所以我们想将其展示在R-Lab线上展览中。

I: Thank you for that! So, you talked about [INSERT ART HERE]. When did you start working on it? And if you could just describe the project to me.

I: 谢谢你们!那么,你们谈到了 [INSERT ART HERE]。你们是什么时候开始创做这个项目的?你们能否向我描述一下这个项目?

T: We started it and it was kind of an idea that originated back November (2020). We were just thinking, what can we do with this new space? I was so frustrated about this constant thing ‘well it’s not real exhibition space though’ and ‘oh you know when we get back to the whatever’. And it was just like, we knew we’d be in it for a while so, what can we do to create that sort of atmosphere that feels like it’s a one-time only thing, that used to be there but whatever. And also, I was playing with this idea of the artist compared to the artwork and that relationship. So Shawn and I had a walk and we were brainstorming this idea, about what if we used like the green morph-suits and the Zoom technology – because we’ve been using Zoom so much – to kind of get the artist to embody their own work, so they become their own exhibition space. Because it felt like the artists will see their work anyway but it was interesting to play with that relationship, and then bring it to an audience on Zoom, which almost feels like an intimate platform as well, that doesn’t replace or stand in for the physical exhibition space but it’s something of its own accord.

T: 我们这个想法源于2020年11月。当时我们在想,我们能在这个新时代做什么?我对这不断发生的事 情感到非常沮丧,比如“虽然这不是真正的展览空间”和“哦,你知道我们什么时候回来”。就像,我们知道我们会在里面呆上一段时间,那么,我们能做些什么来创造那种感觉就像是一次性的东⻄,曾经在那 里,但不管以后怎样。而且,我把艺术家的这个想法和艺术作品以及两者之间的关系相比较。所以Shawn和我散了散步,我们在集思广益地讨论这个想法,如果我们使用绿色变形套装和变焦技术—— 因为我们一直在使用变焦技术——让艺术家体现他们自己的作品,让他们成为他们自己的展览空间。因 为感觉艺术家们无论如何都会看到他们的作品,这种关系很有趣,把它带到Zoom上的观众面前,这几乎感觉像是一个亲密的平台,它不会取代或代替实体展览空间,它本身就是一种和谐。

S: Yeah, and I think as soon as Tsitra brought up these ideas, especially using Zoom in an unconventional way to bring audience and artists together, my mind instantly just went forward and I was like ‘okay, this is such a great idea, it’s so visually striking’. So, what really got me invested in the project were these really strong visuals and I was like ‘I know how to take this forward, and how to reach our audiences’. So in my mind I was instantly thinking about crazy posters, with these green morph-suits, paired with high art, or just our features in the green. So, what really sold me on the project was really the visual medium that we would use to bring our audience together. That was instantly what got me interested, and I guess it was like a snowball going down the hill. Tsitra just had this idea of using Zoom and I was like ‘let’s do this on social media!’. And these crazy ideas were just building and building and building until finally just became this big fascinating project that we just had to do something with!

S: 是的,我认为,当Tsitra提出这些想法时,特别是使用Zoom这一种非传统的方式将观众和艺术家聚集在一起,我的思维立刻被向前推进,我想“好吧,这是一个很棒的想法,它在视觉上如此引人注目”。

因此,真正让我投入到这个项目中的是这些非常强烈的视觉效果,就像‘我知道如何推进这一点,以及如何接触我们的观众’。所以在我的脑海里,我立刻想到了疯狂的海报,这些绿色变形服,搭配高雅艺术,或者只是我们以绿色为特征。所以,在这个项目上真正吸引我的是我们用来把观众聚集在一起的视 觉媒介。这一点立刻引起了我的兴趣,我想这就像一个滚下山的雪球。Tsitra刚想到使用Zoom,我就想 ‘让我们在社交媒体上做这个吧!’. 这些疯狂的想法一直在我们的脑海中构建,最终变成了一个我们不得不做点什么的大项目!

I: And you worked with quite a few artists, right?

I: 你们和很多艺术家合作过,对吧?

T: Yeah! We worked with 13 artists between Europe and North America, it was was great experience being able to meet new people in that way, and share ideas.

T: 是啊!我们与13位来自欧洲和北美的艺术家合作,能够以这种方式结识新朋友,分享想法,是一种很好体验。

I: Did you all know each other before or did you just collect new artists along the way?

I: 你们以前都认识吗,还是在创作过程中一直不断地在寻找和聚集新的艺术家?

S: It was a lovely mix of both. We had an open call which we distributed amongst our university, but also on Instagram and Facebook. So, we had people that we knew applying and we also had people who we had no idea about applying from Brussels and from North America, and we were so fascinated by this response. It was a really interesting mix of people that we knew but also people we had no idea about. And no matter what level we knew them at, being able to relate to this idea of wanting to create art really helped to create this awesome starting point to build a really interesting dialogue with them.

S: 两者都有。我们有一个公开的电话,分布在我们的大学,但也在Instagram和Facebook上发布。所以,我们有认识的人申请,也有不认识的人申请,我们对这种反应非常着迷。这是一个非常有趣的混合,有的人我们认识,但也有人我们不认识。无论我们了解他们的水平如何,能够与这种想要创造艺术的想法联系起来,确实有助于创造这个令人敬畏的起点,并且可以与他们建立一个非常有趣的对话。

I: And how did you coordinate with them? Did you have set instructions or was it just ‘okay, it’s going to be green screen technology’ and then you left artistic freedom to all of them?

I: 你是怎么和他们协调的?你是设定了明确的指令?还是只是“好吧,这将采用绿屏技术”,然后你就把艺术自由留给了所有人?

T: We gave them a lot of freedom; they developed the idea with us really. We kind of started the project wanting it to be a collaboration, we had this idea to embody your own artwork, but immediately you put it out to people and you get ideas that you didn’t have before. People wanted to use green paint, green clothes, and we thought as long as it’s your body so that you’re still embodying it and not taking it away from that, then beyond that people really went a bit wild. And that’s why you’ve got such a range of artworks in it, which is really great. It was so exciting to see where people would take it.

T: 我们给了他们很大的自由;他们和我们一起发展和完善了这个想法。我们有点想把它作为一个合作项目,我们用这个想法来体现自己的艺术作品,你⻢上把它展现给人们,并得到以前没有的想法。人们想用绿色的颜料,绿色的衣服,我们认为只要是你的身体都可以,所以你需要去体现它,而不是把它从那 拿走,然后超越,人们真的有点疯狂。这就是为什么有这么多的艺术品在里面,真的很棒。看到人们把它带到各处真是太令人兴奋了。

S: Yeah, because I think as soon as we started getting applications in from the open call, and people with their really interesting ideas beyond just the morph-suits, like as Tsitra said green paints green clothes and different ways of embodying their artwork through performance, through digital paintings, I think we just didn’t realize that this could be so much more. So, we did everything we could to really help the artists to reach their own vision, we did a whole bunch of research as to how we can use Zoom, we looked into webinars, we looked into green screen, the best way to people for up to upload their work, to record their work. Essentially we aimed to provide as much support to our artists as we could, showing them all the options available and discussing their work with them and being and then find out ‘this will work best with your work’, and then watching them take it forward. So it was just a really interesting back and forth to seeing the artist’s ideas and then talking about the platform and how to take it forward, to seeing the work really grow.

S: 是的,我认为,当我们开始从开放电话中获得人们的作品申请时,大家的想法都很有趣。就像Tsitra 所说,不仅仅是变形服,用绿色颜料绿色衣服和通过表演,通过数字绘画来体现他们的艺术作 品,这些不同的呈现方式,我想我们只是没有意识到还有更多可能性。所以,我们尽我们所能帮助艺术 家们达到他们自己想要的视觉呈现,我们做了一系列的研究,关于如何使用Zoom,我们看了网络研讨会,我们看了绿屏,这是让人们上传他们的作品和记录他们的作品的最好方式。从本质上说,我们的目 标是为我们的艺术家提供尽可能多的支持,向他们展示所有可用的选项,并与他们讨论工作,然后发现 “这将使你的工作变得最有效”,然后看着他们向前推进。因此,这是一个非常有趣的过程,看到艺术家们的想法,然后讨论平台和如何向前推进,从而看到作品真正成⻓。

I: That’s fantastic. So, of course this as an artwork, as a project is strictly connected to the pandemic because we have the technology we’ve been using, and it’s all online. Do you think that something similar could have come up in a non-pandemic situation? In an alternative timeline, basically. Or do you think that – of course it would have been different but – would you have had the original thought if not for this global situation?

I: 太棒了。所以,作为一件艺术品,作为一个项目,这是与疫情密切相关的,因为我们有我们一直在使用的技术,而且都是线上。你认为在非疫情的情况下会出现类似的情况吗?一定是有不同的,你认为在非疫情的情况下你会保持最初的想法吗

T: I think it could have emerged, but I don’t know if it would have. There’s a great connection of this kind of green suit to digital, and I just know personally, I knew Shawn was using kind of digital platform so it’s definitely something that I was perhaps progressing into, but the pandemic shot me into thinking this is actually maybe the most useful thing to be doing rather than faffing about with other mediums. So I don’t know, I think it may have emerged but perhaps a little bit later.

T: 我想它可能会出现的,但我不敢肯定它是否会出现。我个人也知道,这种绿色穿着和数字化有很大的联系,我知道肖恩正在使用一种数字平台,这肯定是我正在发展的东⻄,但这次疫情让我想到,这实际上可能是最有用的做法,而不是与其他媒介混合。我不知道,我想它可能已经出现了,但可能会稍晚一点。

S: I think definitely, at least from my personal perspective about creating artworks. At least for me it was a lot about creating our artworks for a space. So knowing that we’ve got this physical space, how do we fill this, how do I put my digital arts into the space? For [INSERT ART HERE] if not for the pandemic we definitely would have considered a physical space like ‘okay so we’ve got this green screen technology, how do we translate this to a gallery space? Do we show our screen on the wall?’ So it definitely would have been this digital idea, but rooted in the physical. And [with] the pandemic we decided to just do away with all of that, because especially for this idea it was a lot about the digital. So we did away with one extra step and allowed us to focus on what we really want to get across.

S: 我想是肯定的,至少从我个人的⻆度来看是这样的。对我来说,这是关于我们艺术创造的空间。所以知道我们有这个物理空间,我们如何填补这个空间,我如何把我的数字艺术放入这个空间?对于[INSERT ART HERE] ,如果不是疫情,我们肯定会考虑一个物理空间,比如我们有这个绿色屏幕技术,我们怎么把它转换成画廊空间?我们会在墙上展示我们的屏幕吗?所以这肯定是一个数字化的想法,但它植根于物理。在疫情之后,我们决定放弃这些,因为对于这个想法来说,它更多的是关于数字 的。所以我们多走了一步,并专注于我们真正想要的东⻄。

I: Have your feelings about art changed since your first encounter with it? And has it changed with the pandemic?

I: 疫情期间,你对艺术的感觉有没有改变?它随疫情而改变了吗?

S: I’ve definitely been exploring new mediums, even though before the pandemic I was exploring digital art it was more about all right how do I transform this, how do I put this into a gallery space. But now because of the pandemic we’ve had to use new platforms rather than the gallery space to show our work. From there my work has been a lot about using platforms, and then transforming platforms as well, so using a platform as a medium, manipulating it to become an artwork.

I think definitely the pandemic has really encouraged me to look at new mediums, especially digital mediums, and look for ones which aren’t necessarily our mediums. So, even looking at platforms and things which you won’t really consider something you can manipulate in an artistic way, I really push myself to m create something new in this new digital world.

S: 我肯定一直在探索新的媒介,即使在疫情之前,我也一直在探索数字艺术,更多的是关于如何改造 数字艺术,如何把数字艺术放到画廊空间。但现在由于疫情,我们不得不使用新的平台而不是画廊空间 来展示我们的作品。从那以后,我的工作一直是关于使用平台,然后转换平台,所以使用平台作为媒介,操纵它成为一件艺术品。这场疫情确实鼓励我去寻找新的媒介,尤其是数字媒介,寻找那些不一定是我们的媒介。所以,即使是 在平台和东⻄,你不会真的认为你可以用一种艺术的方式操纵,我真的推动自己创造一些新的东⻄在这个新的数字世界。

T: I think for me personally I found that I’ve been really questioning the role of art, rather as in the public sphere but bringing that then into the private, and where does it stand there, and what’s its use and purpose, and how do we interact with it when you know it’s from your own home and in your own personal environment. And also the role of the artist and curator, and the interaction of public and private sphere, and all the different roles of art as a way of expressing emotions. But also as an audience member, how do you receive it on a personal level. And so it’s just been questioning that and how we can play with context in relation to that.

T: 我个人认为我发现我一直在质疑艺术的作用,艺术更像是在公共领域,但把它带到了私人领域,它站在那里,它的用途和目的是什么,当你知道它来自你自己的家,在你自己的个人环境中,我们如何与它互动。艺术家和策展人的⻆色,公共领域和私人领域的互动,以及艺术作为表达情感方式的各种不同 ⻆色。但是作为一个听众,你是如何从个人的⻆度来接受它的。所以我们一直在质疑这个问题,以及我们如何处理与之相关的语境。

I: Yeah because I suppose that the pandemic has accelerated everything, because for years now we’ve been moving towards the digital world, but it has accelerated everything. And now of course we are kind of forced to have everything online, in this very weird space that doesn’t really exist.

I: 是的,我认为疫情加速了一切,因为多年来我们一直在向数字世界迈进,但它加速了这一切。当 然,我们现在不得不把所有东⻄都放到网上,在这个非常奇怪的空间里,其实并不存在。

S: Because technology advances so quickly, so these objects like VHS and CDs, it becomes this peak and then just recedes and disappears, and now it’s become completely digital in this world that it doesn’t really exist it’s not physical. I guess the pandemic really helped to acknowledge these new objects and these new mediums and materials which don’t exist in the physical realm, but because of the pandemic we had to use them and sort of encourage the new way of thinking and approaching art and objects.

S: 因为技术进步如此之快,所以像VHS和CD这样的物体,它变成了一个峰值,然后就消失了,现在它在这个世界上变成了完全数字化的,它不存在,它不是物理的。我想疫情真的帮助我们认识了这些新的物体,这些新的媒介和材料,它们在物质世界中是不存在的,但是由于疫情,我们不得不使用它们, 并且某种程度上鼓励了新的思维方式和接近艺术和物体的方式。

T: It’s all about what you notice and what your way of thinking is, because compared to, rather than a physical object, it’s interesting because it’s becoming more about ideas and art as a way of sharing ideas, and art as a way to propel technology as well.

T: 这都是关于你注意到了什么,你的思维方式是什么,因为与物理物体相比,它更有趣,因为它越来越注重思想和艺术,作为分享思想的一种方式,艺术也是推动科技发展的一种方式。

I: Where do you think [INSERT ART HERE] stands in this? Because of course you have the artists basically disappearing into their own work.

I: 很多观点认为艺术家们基本上消失在他们自己的作品中,你认为[INSERT ART HERE] 在这方面有何意义?

T: Yes and no. I would say it’s a relationship between the art and the artwork. The artist is very much present in the piece because it’s through their shape, through their form that you experience the artwork. So I think in a way the audience sees the artist more than they would have otherwise. And I think Zoom as a platform, as I mentioned I think it’s quite intimate, because I never really facetimed people before the pandemic if I wasn’t particularly close with them, and I still think that people do think it’s a bit odd to be face to face with someone on a call. There’s something about it that feels kind of close, and we’re all getting used to it now but I think there’s still a bit of that in [INSERT ART HERE] and we tried to show that with the private slots. We had private sessions where the artists would have a much smaller audience, and you feel like you’re able to converse with them a bit more, or you experience that human to human rather than being in a white empty room with just a piece of artwork and a silent artist.

T: 是也不是。我认为这是艺术和艺术品之间的关系。艺术家在这件作品中是非常真实的,因为通过他们的形状,通过他们的形式,你可以体验到这件艺术品。因此,我认为在某种程度上,观众比其他人更能看到艺术家。我认为Zoom作为一个平台,正如我提到的,我认为它非常亲密,因为我从来没有在疫情之前真正与人们对视,如果我不是特别接近他们,我依旧觉得人们认为在电话中与某人面对面有点奇怪。但是我们现在都已经习惯了,但我认为在 [INSERT ART HERE] 中还是有一点类似的地方,我们试着用私人会议沟通来展示这一点。我们有私人会议,在那里,艺术家的观众会少得多,你会觉得你能和他们多交谈一点,或者你体验到人与人之间的交流,而不是在一个只有一件艺术品和一个沉默的艺术家的白色空房间里。

S: And I guess another way of putting it would be that initially you’d have the artist and the artwork, and usually they would exist as two different entities. You have the artwork that exists in the gallery space which is up for purchase, and you see the artwork a different way, and the artist you’d approach a different way they explore their work through this and they talk about it. So they exist as two quite different entities, I guess with [INSERT ART HERE] we really wanted to focus on the creation and the unity of both of them. Through [INSERT ART HERE] using Zoom we are able to embrace the relationship between the artists and the artwork, so how they see their work, how they react to their work. And it just became this fluid amalgamation of the two. And which the digital world allowed us to represent and showcase.

S: 我想另一种说法是,一开始你会有艺术家和艺术品,通常它们会作为两个不同的实体存在。你有一件艺术品存在于画廊里,你可以购买,你可以用不同的方式看到艺术品,你接触的艺术家也可以用不同的方式探索和谈论他们的作品。所以它们是作为两个完全不同的实体存在的,我想通过[INSERT ART HERE]把重点放在两者的创造和统一上。通过[INSERT ART HERE]使用Zoom,我们能够理解艺术家和艺术品之间的关系,从而了解他们如何看待自己的作品,如何对自己的作品做出反应。这就变成了两者的流动融合。数字世界让我们得以表现和展示。

T: It’s conversive. it’s a kind of dialogue. There’s art and technology, and art and artist, and audience and artists and it’s like bringing those conversations and encouraging them.

T: 是相互转换的。这是一种对话。有艺术和技术,有艺术和艺术家,有观众和艺术家,这些对话可以鼓励他们。

I: And do you think that this moving of the arts online will stand after the pandemic? Or do you think that the art world will abandon the online world after this pandemic? How do you see the next pivot for the arts?

I: 你们认为这种在线艺术的发展会在疫情之后持续下去吗?或者你认为艺术界在这场疫情之后会放弃网络世界吗?你如何看待艺术的下一个“转折点”?

S: I see it as definitely advancing as a separate avenue. Obviously, people are so used to this new normal, but they sort of idealised the past as well because it was when people could meet and talk in person. And it’s the same for art. People like being able to go to a gallery and seeing their favourite painting up in front of them. So people do want to go back, so I definitely see the physical art world still being a big important part, but the pandemic has definitely highlighted that there is a digital route on which you can develop your artworks, that you’re not just tied to a physical space to show your work. You can take it to online platforms, you can show it to a different audience that’s not just based in your city, you can show your art to the world, potentially, through online platforms. And even now with the current craze of NFTs and new digital currencies to promote digital artworks, there definitely is a separate avenue of digital arts which will be progressing after this pandemic ends. At least I personally hope that it will be propelled forward, it won’t just sort of plateau, it’ll just keep going and being spurred on.

S: 我认为这绝对是一条独立的发展道路。很明显,人们已经习惯了这种新的常态,但他们也把过去理想化了,因为那时人们可以⻅面和交谈。艺术也是如此。人们喜欢去画廊看到他们最喜欢的画。所以人们的确想回到过去,我看到,物理艺术世界仍然是一个重要的组成部分,但这场疫情明确地强调,有一 条数字化的道路,你不仅仅局限于一个物理空间来展示你的作品,你可以开发新的数字化道路。你可以把它带到网上平台,你可以把它展示给不同城市的观众,你可以通过网络平台向世界展示你的艺术。即使是现在,随着当前NFT和新的数字货币的狂热,肯定有一个单独的途径以促进数字艺术作品,数字艺术将在这场疫情病结束后取得进展。至少我个人希望它能向前推进,它不仅仅是一个平台,它会继续前进。

T: I hope they develop as different branches, that the physical space isn’t completely forgotten and that the digital space keeps progressing as well. I think that different people have different needs for each one, and different spaces work differently for people, and say different things. And I think it’s just an interesting expansion of dialogue, and it’s an interesting realm to explore, but not to take away from the physical space either. I don’t think we should completely live all online.

T: 我希望他们能够发展成不同的分支,物理空间不会被完全遗忘,数字空间也会不断进步。我认为不同的人有不同的需求,不同的空间对人的作用不同,说的话也不同。我认为这是一个有趣的对话扩展,是一个值得探索的领域,但也不能完全从物理空间中拿走。我不认为我们应该完全生活在网上。

I: Thank you Shawn and Tsitra, and thank you for joining us here at R-Lab. It was lovely to talk to you and thank you for showing us your work.

I: Shawn和Tsitra,谢谢你们参与R-Lab的访谈,非常高兴能和你们交流并且谢谢你们愿意向R-Lab平台 的观众展示你们的作品

T: Thank you so much!

T: 谢谢!

S: Yes, thank you so much for having us.

S: 谢谢你们的邀请!

Staff

Host: Velia CAVALLINI
Contact Person: Velia CAVALLINI
Planner: Velia CAVALLINI
Text: Velia CAVALLINI
Translator: Jiaqi GAO
Proofreading: Calum BAIRD

 

Talk: Post-pandemic Curating

Bing SU 苏冰

Biography

Bing SU: Chinese famous disciplinary curator, artist

Bing SU aims to take the multidimensional view of this period by inviting the artists, designers, art patitioners and institutions from different regions, and also, researching their artworks during different period of the pandemic. He hopes to use the impulse of Culture, Art and Creativity to let people ease their anxiety. In order to achieve that, he also interviewed artists all over the world and generated the CC Project as an online communicating platform of Artworld to scope artistic impacts and changes of the pandemic.

苏冰,知名跨界策展人、艺术家

苏冰在疫情期间通过发现和邀请不同时期、不同地域的艺术家、设计师、创意工作者及机构组织在疫情前后的创作,侧面来重新审视这个历史的时刻,也希望通过文化艺术和创意的力量,可以让人们停止内心些许的恐慌。同时苏冰还采访了国内外的艺术家,并通过CC计划开设艺术家之间的线上交流平台,深入探索疫情对艺术领域带来的影响和转变。

Event Overview

There are three parts of this event:

  1. Video of a conversation with the curator Bing SU 访谈策展人苏冰
  2. Video transcription in English and Chinese 视频内容文字版(中英文)
  3. Call for discussion on topics of art in the post-pandemic era 后疫情时代的艺术话题讨论

 

Interview

Host: Nerissa YUAN (袁嘉苡)

Guest: Bing SU (苏冰)

The names abbreviated to “Nerissa” (Nerissa YUAN) and “SU” (Bing SU)

主持人:袁嘉苡 Nerissa YUAN

嘉    宾:苏   冰 Bing SU

(之后姓名分别缩写为“袁”、“苏”,英文版为“Nerissa”、“SU”)

 

Nerissa: Hi, Bing SU, it’s so nice to have you as our guest today.

Bing SU: Hi, Nerissa YUAN, thanks R-Lab for inviting me to join today’s online interview.

袁嘉苡:您好,苏冰老师,很荣幸今天能邀请到您来参加我们的线上访谈。

苏冰:你好,袁嘉苡同学,感谢你以及R-Lab组织邀请我进行访谈。

Nerissa: Our pleasure! Okay, now we are going to start our interview. As we all know, the outbreak of Covid-19 has had a huge influence on our lives and our work, accompanied by a multitude of changes. Could you, therefore, tell us about the ways you have arranged your work and life during this period?

SU: Due to the outbreak in January 2020 in China, and we spent three months controlling the spread of the pandemic until April, it was really a tough time for which had a significant impact on everyone’s daily life. I remember clearly when we were able to get back to normal life (and work) gradually at the end of March (2020). I am based in Shanghai and the pandemic situation there was relatively optimistic, both my team and I were trying our best to do our work at home remotely. Then in April of last year (2020), we had basically resumed our normal lives and we curated an Art exhibition in Shenzhen. The exhibition was one of the earliest art exhibitions in China after the outbreak and it was clear that it had influenced the work we curated. What’s more, I think all the art institutions and curating companies were impacted during the pandemic and started to recover in April (2020).

袁:能邀请到您我们深感荣幸。好的,那我们现在就开始进行采访了。众所周知,疫情的爆发为我们的生活、工作等等都带来了非常大的影响,并伴随有许多转变。那么我想请问一下苏冰老师,在疫情期间,您是如何安排您的工作和生活的呢?

苏:因为疫情国内是在2020年的一月初爆发的,当时这个爆发在国内的情况是从1月份一直到4月份,这段时间确实是比较严峻的,然后对大家的生活和工作确实有很大的影响。我记得很清楚,到3月底的时候,我们才开始恢复(到之前的生活),但也是逐渐恢复。在上海(疫情情况)还算好,我们的团队,包括我自己,都是在尽量采取在家里办公、远程办公这样一个方式。然后到去年的4月份,(国内生活和工作)就开始逐渐走向正常状态。所以去年四月份我们就在深圳办了一场艺术展,那确实(开始得)是非常早的。所以确实(生活和工作)是受到影响的,应该说去年,很多,不仅仅是我,所有的国内做艺术类的策展公司也好,机构也好,那段时间都受到了影响,到4月份才逐渐恢复。

 

Nerissa: Now it seems that we are gradually getting the pandemic under control in China, our lives and work are almost back to normal, so could you tell us a little about the differences you have found in your life or work after the pandemic? Are they different from the period before or during the pandemic?

SU: Basically, in China, our lives are almost back to normal, so there are less exhibitions themed around the pandemic and everyone is focusing on what’s happening now instead of looking back. There was a variety of exhibitions about the pandemic covered throughout 2020, but our present situation is much safer and controllable, so our artistic themes are more about vaccination and our status quo.

袁:疫情也有好转了,我们的生活还有工作都恢复到差不多正常,那么我想问一下,您现在的生活状态还有工作的内容会跟(国内)疫情爆发前,或者疫情爆发期间有什么不同吗?

苏:现在国内基本上都正常了,一些展览和疫情(主题)接轨的就少了,大家不太会去讨论这个话题。像去年,整个2020年,相关这样话题的内容还是比较多,但今年就(少了),因为现在国内控制得比较好,相关于这方面的话题或创作就会少很多。但是现在就会面临一个新的话题,就是打疫苗这个话题(笑)。

 

Nerissa: You have been visiting the art studios of different artists since 2014, have you noticed any changes during the pandemic in what they are creating? Could you tell us about the most impressive change among them from your perspective?

SU: Do you mean the differences that have emerged since I started visiting art studios? I think all arts-practitioners in China were badly affected by the pandemic, as a result, they started to have some new perspectives of our society and on the whole world. Some of these changes in perception are reflected in their lives and even in the art they create. I have a lasting memory from June of last year (2020) when we had an exhibition in Chengdu on a national tour in Xu Liaoyuan Art Museum. At that time, because of the pandemic, many artists, their work, income and living conditions were impacted so significantly that some of them were seeking part-time jobs. Obviously, their work would be affected by these circumstances.

袁:(笑)我们有注意到您从2014年开始就一直有艺术家工作室的探班计划,您有观察到他们在疫情期间一些工作上的变化或者转变吗?从您的角度来说,您印象最深刻的那种转变是什么?

苏:你是说这个工作室探班计划在疫情期间(的转变)是吗?我觉得这次疫情对国内很多做艺术的工作者、艺术家来说,确实影响蛮大的。也让大家对自己的创作,包括对社会、对这个世界的认知有了一些新的感受。有些(转变)都会体现到他/她自己的生活状态,甚至创作内容中。那么去年我印象很深刻(的一件事)是在6月份,我做展览做到成都的时候,在成都许燎源美术馆,我们当时有一个全国的巡展。(那时)成都很多年轻艺术家确实因为疫情,他/她的生活、经济来源,包括工作都受到影响,甚至有些人在考虑找一些兼职的工作。这些确实也会影响到他们的一些创作,这是事实。

 

Nerissa: The CC Plan ( an artistic project raised during the pandemic, the CC is about Communication and Connection) you have created during the pandemic really inspired those of us who would like to engage in the future of the Art world.  We have noticed that the keywords of the “CC plan” are “minority”, “deep”, “thematic” and “in any way”, could you talk about that? What are your intentions with this plan? And why did you pivot to create this plan during the pandemic?

SU: That’s really a good question. In fact, after the outbreak of the pandemic last year, we have started a project called “Post-Pandemic Era” at home.  I think we have published more than a dozen blogs through our official account on WeChat.  There were nearly 100 artists and their artworks which were created during the pandemic and published in form of interviews and articles that divided into different but related themes like the contents of our blogs, and the blogs were published according to different relative stages.  We are pleased that all those blogs received a great reception.

The CC plan is a section of the Post-Pandemic Project formed as a dialogue column. We decided to organize artists, art critics and art lovers through online conversations because meeting up during that period was not prohibited.  So, the CC plan was an independent section of the Post-Pandemic Era project’s program.

Speaking of which, I have just remembered that after publishing blogs online, we launched another part of the “CC Plan” when the lockdown was lifted in China. We launched a call for artworks together with the organisation of Shanghai Design Week, about a thousand artworks were collected and we selected works from this to join our exhibition held at the Shanghai No.10 Subway Station.

(PS: the number of the artworks published by blogs during pandemic is also 100)

袁:是的,然后您在疫情期间所打造的CC计划对我们这些未来想要从事艺术行业的人有非常大的启发和思考。我们有留意到您的CC计划是以小众、深度、主题式、沟通、任何方式为关键词来沟通进行的,想请问一下您打造这个计划的初衷和目的,以及什么样的转变使您想要打造这个计划?

苏:这个是一个很好的话题。实际上去年疫情一爆发以后,当时我们在家里就开始提出了一个叫作后疫情时代(的项目),当时我们应该是持续做了十几期,通过公众号、微信推出了大概十几期,我不知道这个你们有没有关注?包括我们做了十几期的采访、推文,然后每一期都有相关的主题,同时收集了很多,将近有100多位艺术家的作品,(他们)在疫情期间创作的作品,然后我们分阶段做了一些推送,反响特别好。CC计划是后疫情时代(项目)其中的一个对话栏目,因为大家(当时)不能够聚集,那么我们可以通过线上的方式,组织一些艺术家、评论家、艺术爱好者(进行)对话。所以这个(CC计划)是在我们后疫情时代这个大的艺术计划里面的独立项目。

说到这个“后疫情时代”,当时我们邀请、发现了大概有100位左右的艺术家的作品进行了推送,后来我们又跟上海设计周这个组织发起了一个征集活动,征集了大概有1000多件作品,最后我们挑选了100件作品在上海10号线地铁(站)进行了展出。

 

Nerissa: That is incredible. I am wondering, then, if there were any difficulties you needed to overcome during the project?

SU: There were a few problems. For example, when we were going to contact the Chinese artists abroad, a few of them refused. I can understand that they didn’t want to participate or talk about the pandemic because they’re in a foreign country at that time.  We were still very lucky that most of the artists invited took part and made a positive contribution. Another difficulty was that also suffered different problems which emerged from relying on online communications.  This meant that our conversations did not always go smoothly. These were the two main points that caused us problems.

袁:那想请问一下在这个项目的进行过程中,有没有遇到什么困难是您要去克服的?

苏:遇到过一些。比如当时我们想去联络一些在国外的华人艺术家,个别艺术家可能会抗拒,这我也能够理解,(因为)他们可能不太想参与到这样一个话题(中),或者说不太想讨论这样一个话题,因为他们在异国他乡,所以(这种情况)我们也碰到过,但是大部分艺术家都还是积极参与的,这是一部分(困难)。还有一部分困难在于,毕竟还是在远程沟通,就会存在沟通并不是那么顺畅(的情况),因为不能够面对面(沟通)。主要是这两方面。

 

Nerissa: You mentioned the “Post-Pandemic Era” project.  Before our interview, we had noticed that the blogs you have posted on the WeChat account were named “Post-SARS Era” previously, then the name was changed to the “Post-Pandemic Era”.  Can you tell us the reason for doing that?

SU: This was because when the pandemic first broke out, we really didn’t expect it would be so severe.  Consequently, I just made an analogy.  If SARS was mild for all of us, then the pandemic affects everyone. My original thought was that after a period, the pandemic might have been controlled and eradicated.  We did not expect it to last so long, and that this time it would be so hard for the whole world to overcome. As we know, SARS subsided within half a year, so at first, the name used was “Post-SARS”, and this was intended to make sure that people would never forget the impact of SARS, and I had realized that this time it would have a profound impact on the whole world, whether it would be economic, cultural or artistic aspects. I did not expect the pandemic to exist for such a long time, however. Later, my colleagues and friends suggested that the word “Post-Pandemic” fits our situation more, so the name was changed.

袁:我刚刚有听您提到“后疫情时代”(这个项目),我们有注意到您的公众号在前几期的推文当中是将名字取名为“后非典时代”,第十期的时候改名为“后疫情时代”,想问下是因为什么(原因)会有一个名称上的转变?

苏:因为刚爆发的时候(我们)并没有想到这一次的疫情会这么严重,当时真的没想到,我就是打了个比喻,如果说当年的非典对我们所有人来说是一次感冒的话,那么这次疫情对大家来说更严重,像一场住院。我(本来)想,经过一段时间,这个疫情可能就退却了,解决掉了,但事实上(我们)没有想到它的周期这么长,这一次人类面对这个问题是那么的艰巨。因为我们知道,非典其实在半年时间(内),它就自然消退了,所以最早我提出来的(推文标题)是“后非典”,让我们不要忘记非典给我们带来的所有影响,而且我当时也意识到这一次一定会给全球,无论是经济还是文化、艺术方方面面都会带来很深远的影响,但是没有想到(疫情)周期那么长。(所以)后来很多朋友、同事反映,他们觉得应该提“后疫情时代”(作为标题)更好,后来就改过来了。我觉得“后疫情时代”更恰当。

 

Nerissa: Yes, I agree with you. I’d like to ask whether there are any artists that impressed you during the process of your call for artworks? Would you like to tell us about these artists or their artworks?

SU: Sure. You have reminded me of two artists. The one which especially impressed is her name is Shuai Wang from Henan province. She produced hundreds of black-and-white illustrations throughout the pandemic, this series of illustrations is called “Stories and Living Beings during the Pandemic”. After the completion, we helped her to publish it, the response was great, with tens of thousands of hits and a lot of attention, including media reports about her across China. She used hundreds of illustrations to describe her feelings, her friends’, and the conditions of people during the whole pandemic.

There is another artist who is an internet celebrity in China, named Jingyi ZHU. I interviewed him during the pandemic, and, he has produced some artwork in that time.

No one suspected that there were problems of health which affected his work and even his whole life hugely. These two artists are the ones who really impressed me.

In addition, something regrettable happened during the pandemic last year (2020). Some of our art colleagues have left the industry for different reasons, physical or circumstantial, some of them were good friends.  I always feel sad when talking about these things.  Therefore, I think the pandemic really is forcing us to re-recognize and rethink different aspects of the whole world, whether as artists or as arts-practitioners.

袁:那想请问一下在“后疫情时代”这个项目当中,在艺术征集的过程中,您有印象非常深刻的艺术家或者他们的艺术作品可以介绍(给我们)吗?

苏:这个我倒是可以推荐一两位,到时候可以把资料都发给你们。尤其(印象深刻的)是一位来自河南的80后女性艺术家,叫王帅。她在整个疫情期间一共创作了几百幅的黑白插画,创作了一个系列叫作“疫情故事和众生相”。这一个系列做完以后,我们也帮她做了推送,反响特别好,有上万的点击量和关注,包括全国很多媒体对这个艺术家(进行)报道。她是通过几百张的插画描述了整个疫情期间她的感受以及她身边朋友的感受,以及人们的一些状态。同时她在疫情期间组织了几百个在家(创作)的艺术爱好者,主要是女性(艺术家)为主,组了一个社群。因为这次疫情也会对很多人的心理上造成一些影响,有些人长时间不出门,他/她会有孤独症,有些人找不到一个(情绪宣泄的)出口,那么她组织这样一个叫作“画画那点事”的社群(互助艺术家),这个社群到现在还在,还非常活跃。我觉得她这两个方面:一个方面是自己的创作,另外一方面是她组织的这个社群, 对大家在疫情期间起了很好的作用,甚至是说艺术起到了治愈的效果。所以这个艺术家我是重点推荐的。

另外还有一位艺术家是国内的网红艺术家,叫朱敬一。在疫情期间我对他进行了采访,他也做了创作,但是没有想到疫情后期他自己生病了,他生了一场大病。这个是我们都没有想到的,和疫情(新冠)没有关系,是他自己生了一场大病。但是因为这场大病,包括这次疫情,对他的整个人生,包括创作,也都起了很大的影响。所以我是觉得去年的这个疫情,这两位艺术家的情况是比较突出的。

另外,去年疫情中间也发生了一些事情,我可以讲一讲,有一些我们艺术的同行,可能因为身体的原因,也因为特殊的情况,离开了这个世界,(其中)也有我几个特别好的朋友,这个事情说起来也是非常得令人感伤。所以我觉得整个疫情让艺术家也好,和从事这些工作的工作人员也好,对这个世界,对各个方面都有了重新的认知和思考。

 

Nerissa: You have conducted a lot of interviews with both foreign and domestic artists, like the Italian artist Salvo Pastorello. Have you found any differences among those artists in different regions during the pandemic, such as the difference of their artworks or their creative mindset, especially the differences between those Artists from Europe and from China?

SU: You have asked a great question.  All the interviewed Artists who are from countries outside China had visited China before. They said they had a great affection for China and really wanted to visit China again soon.  They were very when I interviewed them, and they told me that it reminded them that they still had friends in China who were taking care of them.  This is the first point. Another point is that they were happy to have the chance to express themselves and talk about their art.

袁:是的,我们也注意到您不仅访谈了中国的艺术家,然后也访谈了一些外国的艺术家,比如说意大利的沙沃·帕斯特雷洛(Salvo Pastorello)。我想请问一下您,他们在疫情期间的创作的作品以及他们对疫情的一种心态与中国的艺术家有什么区别呢?

苏:你这个话题挺好的,因为是这样的,我采访的几个(外国)艺术家都是来过中国的,他们对中国有很深厚的感情,然后他们特别渴望回到中国(笑),特别想回来。当我对他们做采访的时候,他们特别开心,就是感觉到中国的朋友还在关心他们,这是一个(方面),另外一方面他们觉得通过疫情他们也能够有一个发声的平台,这让他们也是开心的。但实际上我又感觉国外这几位我访谈的艺术家要比国内艺术家的情绪要糟糕得很多,他们的这个情绪比国内艺术家悲观。为什么呢?因为国内在4、5月份以后就基本上都开始恢复了,无论是交通、交流、工作、生活都逐渐地恢复,但是国外还不是那么稳定。而且这几位艺术家可能原来也是在中国待过,所以他们对中国有感情,但现在又回不来,然后在中国、在国外的一些展览计划都被打乱。所以我能感受到,第一,他们非常渴望能够回到正常生活和创作的轨道;第二,就是这次的疫情对他们的创作是有打击的,整个创作热情我感觉到是有所下降,因为不能和人去交流了。

 

Nerissa: Since we are here, I would like to know whether you have noticed the different policies for artists adopted in different countries during the pandemic?

SU: As far as I know, some those artists in America, France and Germany have already got some state support but there are still people in other countries who have not received any yet. For instance, the Italian artist Pastorello, he said that “The Government doesn’t care about us.”, and “I didn’t get support”.

袁:那我想请问一下,因为中外的政府是对艺术家有采取不同的政策,您对这些方面有了解过吗?

苏:这个话题有所了解,据我了解,当然不是很精准,我知道在美国的艺术家,在法国的艺术家,在德国的艺术家,好像这几个国家的艺术家都拿到了一些补贴。但是好像有些国家(的艺术家)就没拿到,比如我采访的那个艺术家,帕斯特雷沃,意大利的艺术家,他说“政府不关心我们”(笑),“我没拿到补贴”,可能各个国家的政策不一样。

 

Nerissa: Then I would like to ask about your thoughts on the recovery of the artworld.  In your three articles of “Post-Pandemic2020—New Fields”, you have focused on the post-pandemic development of some rural regions in China.   With this in mind, we would like to ask you to discuss the future development of the art market?

SU: I prefer to focus this on China which I am more familiar with. The art market in China has undergone tremendous changes in the past few years with several distinctive features. The first one is that as a result of the rapid development of the Internet, more people have joined the arts industry, which has created more possibilities for the spread of information about art to take place a lot faster.  This is especially the case in China’s first-tier cities. Similarly, we found more information about exhibitions or news all over the world.

The second aspect is, in China, Art is becoming more and more trans-industry and inter-disciplinary. Today in China, there are different exhibitions held not only in the museums or galleries but also in some public commercial spaces, such as shopping centres and plazas which is a characteristic feature of the spread of exhibitions in China.

The third aspect is that Art in China today is more “down-to-earth”. Art does not just appear in galleries, it has gone into our daily lives, appearing in streets and communities, even rural areas. Although, I have to say, that Japan is best at moving Art into the countryside—like the “Echigo-Tsumari Art Field” held every three years.  However, many villages that have their own features are also integrating Art with their distinctive cultures to achieve rural revitalisation. This is also a trend now in China. Now we’re in a digital era, this digital tendency is promoting not just the development of digital and multimedia art but also the cohesive collaboration of Art and Technology.

Meanwhile, the digital continues to influence the art world of the future. The “poping art” (the artistic style popular with the young people) raised by young artists is a major direction of digitisation.  This phenomenon is controversial.  My own position is that it is a positive development, while some art practitioners do not think so as they have traditional perspectives, and they hold dismissive attitudes toward its impact on the art market.

袁:是的,国家政策对艺术家的收入来源其实是有一定影响的,这方面我们也是有感受到。然后我们就想请问一下您对于艺术经济以后复苏(情况)的看法,因为我们有注意到在《2020后疫情时代——新田野》的三篇文章当中,您有聚焦到中国疫情后乡村的一些发展,我们想请问一下您对(整个)艺术(行业)以后的发展有什么看法?

苏:我觉得国内这几年,我不说全世界,我就说中国,中国这几年整个的艺术市场的变化巨大,有几个鲜明的特征。第一个,因为互联网和移动互联网让更多的人加入到了艺术的这个行业,也让更多的艺术类的资讯和信息,尤其在国内的一线城市,得到了非常快速和好的普及,我们可以看到很多国际的展览,国际的艺术资讯,这是一方面。第二个方面就是在国内,艺术越来越破圈和跨界,(这种现象)特别得明显,这个是中国的特色。今天在中国,不仅在美术馆和画廊可以看到展览,同时你会在各个商场,以及很多的公共空间看到展览,尤其是商业的公共空间、商业中心,有很多的展览,这个是国外也没有的,这是中国的一个特色。第三点就是艺术正在降维,艺术不仅仅是在美术馆,它走进了公共空间,走进了商业中心,走进了日常的生活,走进了街区、社区,甚至还走进了乡村。当然了,艺术走进乡村做得最好的可能是日本,(比如)“越后妻有大地艺术祭”,但是现在随着国内的乡村振兴,很多有特色的乡村也在让艺术和文创,和乡村振兴融合,很多艺术家都到乡村去创作,所以这个(特征)也是特别明显的。第四点我是觉得因为数字化时代,尤其最近(的)数字艺术、多媒体艺术,艺术和科技的融合在未来对国内的艺术发展也有极大的影响,而在这其中,同时还有年轻人的潮流艺术也是国内现在的一个主要方向。所以这是我目前(在)大框架(下)简单地讲讲我个人的想法,总体我觉得是乐观的,但是很多传统的艺术工作者对艺术市场(的态度)是不乐观的。

 

Nerissa: What do you think could be the negative aspects?

SU: Their lacking optimism reflects various aspects.  As I’ve said before, the domestic art market is experiencing a rapid change in the economy, technology and culture.  I would call this a kind of “iteration”.  During this “iteration”, it is unavoidable that those arts-practitioners holding a conservative view that they cannot keep up with the times. For instance, there are lots of young artists who use social media platforms to post their artworks, such as WeChat, Facebook or Instagram, but those traditional artists won’t do that. What’s more, there is an increasing number of artists born in the 1990s, who have been abroad studying art and come back to China to work as arts practitioners.

I was always joking that the art market was like a piece of cheese.  Previously there were few people sharing the cheese but now there probably thousands of people, which is tenfold number of before, as a result, the competition inside must be much more intense.

袁:他们的不乐观主要是体现在哪里?

苏:他们的不乐观体现在几个方面,因为这几年,我前面也说了,国内整个的艺术市场,包括经济、文化各个方面变化特别大,这个叫迭代吧,迭代得特别快,而在这种迭代特别快的过程之中,很多的传统思维,很多(艺术家)还是抱有着原有的那种对艺术理解的传统思维的那些创作者会跟不上,会适应不了。比如说现在很多年轻艺术家都要用社交(平台),微信,Facebook这些,那么对很多(有)传统思维的艺术家,可能他在这些思维上会跟不上。第二,因为现在有越来越多的90后的年轻艺术家,他们都在国外读过书,在国外受过艺术类的教育,回国以后从事艺术类的工作,这些人群现在是(在)扩大。所以我开玩笑说,这个艺术品市场,我们把它叫作这块奶酪,这块奶酪也不是很大(笑),原来可能就几百个人在吃这块奶酪,而今天,可能是几千个人,十倍以上的数量,那么这个竞争也加大了。再加上这几年,整个欧洲的经济市场也不是特别理想,因为在过去有一段时间,很多国外的收藏家购买中国艺术家的作品,这几年(数量)也都会下降,这个(情况)对传统思维的这些艺术工作者来说,(让)他们确实对(艺术)市场并不是那么乐观,这个也是正常的。

 

Nerissa: You have talked about an “iteration” caused by digitalisation, and we are currently using the digital technique to conduct activities like art exhibiting, so could you tell us what you think about the combination of Art and Technology?

SU: I see this combination as two-sided. It has both benefits and drawbacks. The benefit of it is that it could allow art to have more potential to be created using new methods, and its ability to spread art offers more possibilities for art to be accessed by more people.  In addition, it also makes it easier to engage art in our daily life, watching live events or broadcasts, for instance, this feature is enhanced with the application of 5G.

We now have more ways of interacting online and can access more exhibitions and art events, like the exhibition of “teamLab” in Japan was held in China in that way.  This is my point; the technology helps people access art and feel its charm in a more convenient way for people who are not on the site to engage the live events remotely.

However, the technologising of our world leads us to lack humanistic care.  When we’re going to some exhibitions of new-media art and multimedia art, our focus would be more about the visual stuffs rather than the resonance of humanity. This is also a significant phenomenon of our current situation.

Totally, the benefit is greater than the drawback.  According to the development of art history, from the classicism to the impressionism, the invention of the camera, computer, telephone or smartphone, step by step, every artistic revolution or campaign has an aspect of technological promotion. Therefore, if we take a long-term view of our situation, it seems technology will have a positive tendency, but it is inevitable that there would be drawbacks when we move forward and develop.

袁:您刚刚有提到,我们现在已经进入了一个互联网时代,所有的事物都在快速地迭代,我们也有运用互联网技术来进行我们的艺术策展之类的活动,想请问一下您对于科技与艺术结合的观点和看法。

苏:科技和艺术的结合我觉得是双刃剑,有利有弊。利就是它(科技)确实在推进艺术的创新,也让更多的人走近艺术、了解艺术,并且介入到艺术生活中,它起到了便利的作用,比如说我们现在很多展览的开幕可以用到直播的方式,我们不一定要去现场,就能够感受到现场(的氛围),甚至未来随着5G技术的提高,我们(可以)更加身临其境,通过多媒体的方式、交互的方式,更能够感触(艺术展览),包括像日本的teamLab这样的艺术在国内展出。这就是我觉得有利的(方面),科技帮助人们更深切地了解艺术,感受到艺术的魅力,方便了大家,比如不在一线城市的很多人,他/她可以通过远程去了解到这些东西。

但是不利的一面也会存在,当过于得科技化之后,大部分作品的人文关怀度少了很多。有时候你去看一些新媒体展、多媒体展,你会看得眼花缭乱,更多的是一种感官的刺激,而缺少了一些人文关怀,我觉得这个也是蛮凸显的一个情况。

总体来说它(艺术和科技的结合)是往好的方面发展的,因为我们从人类艺术史的发展(来看),从古典艺术到印象派,照相机的诞生,电脑的诞生,到手机,智能手机诞生,其实一步一步到现在,我们会发现,每一次艺术的运动,或者说大的革命、大的转变,其实背后都是因为技术在推动着它(艺术)。所以我是觉得,从长远的角度看是好事,它(科技)一定是起到了推动的作用,在这个迭代的过程之中,当然也有不如意的地方,这也是正常的。

 

Nerissa: That’s true, sometimes we miss the importance of humanistic care.

SU: Definitely.  Your question before tends to be more about the relation between art and technology, so I will say it is more positive if we look at this combination of art and technology as a whole.  It should be revolutionary, especially the advancing techniques of mobile Internet, artificial intelligence, they must be beneficial, but what we need to do is to take them as two-sided, to let ourselves be more objective to avoid losing our humanistic quality of art.

袁:是的,(有时候)就会忽略掉一些艺术(关怀)方面的东西。

苏:对,(因为)你提的问题是艺术和科技的关系,(所以)我觉得总体上,长远来说一定是好的,它一定是革命性的,尤其现在移动互联网、人工智能、大数据、传感器这些技术一定都是好的,但它事实上也是双刃剑,我们也要去更多地考虑,所有创造出来的作品是不是有一些人文的关怀,对人是有帮助的。

 

Nerissa: You’ve said that the artwork of Shuai WANG is a long-term plan, this reminds me of the CC plan. As a project themed around connecting and communicating, it does have the potential to keep ongoing. I would like to know whether you’ve thought about that?

SU: Definitely, it was intended to be a long-lasting program. Likewise, the Post-pandemic Era is part of long-term planning. It is expected to last about three years and we are looking forward to having an exhibition in 2023.  Here, we will perform all our works during these three years, such as CC Plan, our interviews with artists, artistic creation, etc.

袁:您刚刚有提到王帅老师的艺术计划是一个长期的运作,想问一下您,CC计划既然这是以沟通和连接为主题的一个计划,那您有考虑过将CC计划作为一个长期的发展项目吗?

苏:对的,这肯定是要作为一个长期的(项目),其实我们当时提出“后疫情时代”这个艺术计划的时候,我们的推文下面是有备注说这也是个长期计划,大概计划是(进行)三年,我们是希望到三年以后,我们会把过去三年这方面相关的工作,包括访谈,包括一些艺术家的创作,包括CC计划,我们最后希望三年以后会有一个落地的展览,也就是到2023年(实现)的样子。

 

Nerissa: That would be great!  You have said that the artists you interviewed had talked about the obstacles presented by living and working during pandemic, well, for my part, I know, that there are also artists in need of a platform to be shown to the public, this is a main factor of establishing R-Lab.  R-Lab is aiming to provide more exposure for the artworld to have more potential to develop, in the context of looking at the pandemic as a Pivot. We are aware that you have contacted the young artists group by curating an exhibition with some of them, called “Deep in the Life”. Therefore, with the young artists group in mind, could you talk about what they might find meaningful from our project of the “Pivot Culture”?

SU: Do you want to to talk about the “Deep in the Life” exhibition? Or?

袁:了解了。因为您刚刚也提到您之前采访的西方艺术家,他们可能会有生活上或者工作上的一些阻碍,而且根据我们的了解,也有一些艺术家们急需一个平台去展示他们的思考(和作品),这也是我们以“疫情下的转变”为这次项目主体的原因之一,我们想对一些刚刚踏入艺术领域的工作者提供思考方向和展示空间。我们有注意到您有一个“生活深处”的青年艺术家联展,所以您也曾经接触过青年艺术家这个群体。所以我们想请教您,您认为我们这一次“疫情转折文化”的主题可以为青年艺术家这个群体提供怎样的讨论点呢?

苏:你最后一个问题是说我们“生活深处”的那个展览吗,还是?

Nerissa: I mean could you take that experience as a way of scoping the young artists group and plot some ways they can benefit from our “Pivot Culture” program?

SU: Got you. I don’t know much about the specific situation of the UK, but you have mentioned that basically you are still holding exhibitions online.  On our situation in China, basically 70%-80% of exhibitions are able to be held physically, the young artists group in China now is very active, so with that in mind, I think it would be great for you to invite some of them to contribute to your program on “Pivot Culture”, because they could contribute to the post-pandemic view of art-making and rethinking the different situations, and different cultures could bring more possibilities for all of you.

In addition, from my point of view, the key thing you might to consider is: What kind of platform are you going to offer? How could they participate in it? And the last which may take the most amount of care – how are their artworks are going to be hosted on your platform?

袁:是我们有注意到您的这个展览为很多的青年艺术家提供了平台,所以我们想请教一下您,根据我们这一次“疫情转折点”的主题,(您)能为青年艺术家提供怎样的讨论点和思考方向?

苏:好的,我不知道现在英国那边的情况,当然你刚才也说了,现在很多都是通过线上的方式来做展览。那么国内现在的展览基本上恢复到之前的70~80%,都比较正常(运作)了,很多美术馆很多艺术空间都开了。所以明显可以看得出,从去年下半年到现在,国内的青年艺术家的创作,包括展览都已经很活跃了。我觉得你们提的“转折点”,包括整个概念非常好,可以让更多的国内的艺术家也可以参与到你们这个计划里面来,我觉得他们肯定是非常感兴趣参与的,你们能够提供一个合适的平台让他们一起来参与,我觉得这个是关键:提供什么样的平台,他们用什么样的方式参与,最后是他们也很关心的最终的呈现方式。

 

Nerissa: Could you give us some advice for us to promote our works or ways of hosting artworks?

SU: You could host and exhibit all your work in this digitally. We’ve launched a project that could cooperate with you guys. The people born after the 1990s are called Gen Z right? I think you’re the same. There is a group called  LineZ, its members are the students studying abroad, they are all Gen Z. They have their own platform which we are supporting, and they want to hold an exhibition in the latter part of this year, themed on Gen Z. This would be held both online and physically, so I think you could co-operate with them.

袁:您在呈现方式上面有什么可以提供(给)我们参考的意见,让我们学习一下?

苏:我觉得完全可以用线上的方式来呈现,正好我们今年还发起了一个计划,我觉得这样的计划可以跟你们做链接。我们现在的95后叫做Z时代,对吧?我想你们也是95后的Z时代。他们有一个Line Z的这样的一个小组,组织的成员基本上有在美国读书的,有在英国的,他们都是95后。他们现在有了这样的一个小组,然后他们有一个自己的平台,我们也在支持他们。可能在今年的下半年,他们想组织一个Z时代的艺术展,这个展是线上和线下都有(进行),我觉得他们也可以加入到你们这个计划,或者跟你们的计划进行合作。

Nerissa: That sounds interesting, we could talk about that after the interview. Well, thank you for accepting our invitation and talking with us, Bing SU, it’s so nice to have you here.

袁:好的,到时候可以商量一下合作细节(笑)。谢谢苏冰老师,我们今天的采访就结束了,谢谢您的配合。

 

Topics of Art in the Post-pandemic Era

As a result of this talk, R-Lab has prepared two interesting topics, please feel free to interact with us on our social media and share your thoughts on the following topics, or submit to our mailbox: r-lab.curating@outlook.com

经过本次访谈,R-Lab准备了两个有趣的话题,欢迎和我们的社交媒体互动并交流你对于这两个话题的想法,或者投稿至我们的邮箱:r-lab.curating@outlook.com

Artistic Healing

In the interview, Bing mentions a female artist in Henan, China: Shuai WANG. She created a series of black and white illustrations during the pandemic which called “Stories of the Pandemic and the Lives of People”, and her hundreds of illustrations depicting feelings and the state of she and her friends during the pandemic, these artworks received a lot of attention. She also organised an art community called ‘Painting and Drawing’, in which hundreds of artists exchanged artistic creations and used art to comfort each other’s anxious feelings during the pandemic. Bing believes that this can be described as ‘art having a healing effect’.

  • Share a work of art that you think has healed you and briefly explain why
  • Share the experience of how art has healed you
  • Share an artwork/act that you have created that has healed you/others

艺术治愈

在访谈中,苏冰提到了中国河南一位女性艺术家:王帅。她在疫情期间创作了一个黑白插画系列,叫作“疫情故事和众生相”,她通过这几百张插画描绘了疫情期间她和身边朋友的感受和状态,受到了广泛关注。同时她还在疫情期间组织了一个叫作“画画那点事”的艺术社群,与几百位艺术家在其中交流艺术创作,用艺术安慰彼此在疫情下焦虑的心情。苏冰认为这可以说是“艺术起到了治愈的效果”。

  • 分享你认为治愈过你的艺术作品,并简单谈谈理由。
  • 分享艺术治愈你的经历
  • 分享你创作过的治愈自己/他人的艺术作品/行为

Humanism in Art

In the interview, Bing answers our question about the relationship between technology and art. He believes that in the long run, it is good for technology to drive the development of art, because “every movement, or big revolution, or big transformation in art is actually driven by technology”, but he also believes that this “double-edged sword” also has a downside, that is, when art becomes too technological, it may simply pursue sensory stimulation and lack humanistic care.

  • Share a work that you think shows a humanistic approach to art, and briefly explain why
  • Can art with technology bring humanism to the table?
  • Where do you think humanism in art can be found? From the actual work? From the connotations conveyed? Or from the whole artistic atmosphere?

艺术的人文关怀

在访谈中,苏冰回答了我们关于“科技与艺术关系”的问题,他认为从长远来看,科技推动艺术发展是好事,因为“每一次艺术的运动,或者说大的革命、大的转变,其实背后都是因为技术推动着”,但同时他也认为这把“双刃剑”也有弊端,那就是艺术过于科技化后,可能会单纯追求感官刺激,而缺少了人文关怀。

  • 分享你认为呈现过艺术人文关怀的作品,并简单谈谈理由。
  • 科技下的艺术能否带来人文关怀?
  • 你认为的艺术人文关怀可以体现在哪里?体现在实际作品?体现在作品传达的内涵?还是整体的艺术氛围?

 

Staff

Host: Nerissa YUAN
Contact Person: Ifance FAN, Christy YANG
Planner: Christy YANG
Text: Christy YANG, Ifance FAN
Translator: Jiaqi GAO, Christy YANG
Proofreading: Calum BAIRD

 

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