OCAT Shenzhen x OCT Art & Design Gallery OCAT深圳 x 华 · 美术馆
“Decentralization” is a different attempt of this project from the past. “What’s Started and What’s Ended” Series 2020 Special Public Project provides an open and empathetic platform for the public to discuss four issues related to the epidemic in the “O₂ Online Chat.” “Design Notebook” used poster design techniques to record the five keywords raised from the conversation. “Collaborative Writing” guides two groups of writers to express their ideas through relay writing freely.
“去中心化”是这个项目与以往不同的尝试。“什么开始了，什么结束了”系列2020特别公共项目为公众提供了一个开放的、共情的平台，在“O2聊天室”就疫情相关的四个议题展开了探讨。随后的“设计记录簿”用海报设计的手法，记录下了从谈话中提出的5个关键词。“联合写作计划”通过接龙写作的规则，让两组写作者自由表达自己的想法。
From a macro perspective, the digital tendency of our world might be the most apparent turn involved in all walks of life, including public education. Therefore, R-Lab invited the members working in the same field of public education but from different popular institutions in China. They would like to share their Pivot-related thoughts from dimensions of individuals, project creators, and Art partitioners of the industry. This would include: the personal pivot as art practitioners, the context of the project, how to balance its publicity and professional, the relation between physical and digital, and suggestions for young people who aimed to engage in public education.
从宏观上看，向线上转化是疫情期间各行各业都最为明显的转变，公教也不例外。R-Lab请来了该项目的创作者，同时也是中国知名当代美术馆的公教部从业人员就个人、项目、行业这三个层面的话题及其转变分享了她们的见地。其中涉及到艺术从业人员的个人转变，该项目的创作背景故事，如何平衡公共教育中的公众性与专业性，线上与线下的关系，及给希望从事公教行业的青年的建议。
The posters from ‘Design Notebook’
We only exhibited a part of the project; the original public project link is here in Chinese.
“What’s Started and What’s Ended” Series 2020 Special Public Project
O₂ Online Chat 线上聊天室(2020.4)
Design Notebook 设计记录簿
2020特别公共项目 “什么开始了，什么在结束” | 设计记录簿（上）
2020特别公共项目 “什么开始了，什么在结束” | 设计记录簿（下）
Collaborative Writing 联合写作计划(2020.6.7-8.7)
Biography
OCT Contemporary Art Terminal (OCAT Shenzhen) and OCT Art & Design Gallery are famous contemporary art museums in Shenzhen, operated by Overseas Chinese Town Group (OCT). OCAT Shenzhen was established in 2005. It is located in Shenzhen OCT-LOFT. It is the earliest institution in the OCAT art museums that also opened in Beijing, Shanghai, Wuhan, and Xian. OCT Art & Design Gallery, established in 2008, adjacent to He Xiangning Art Museum, is the first art museum focus on design and experimental art in China.
深圳OCT当代艺术中心（简称OCAT深圳）和华·美术馆是深圳的知名当代美术馆，隶属于深圳华侨城集团。OCAT深圳成立于2005年，位于深圳华侨城创意园区内，是OCAT艺术馆群中最早建立的机构。另外，OCAT在北京、上海、武汉、西安都设有分馆。华·美术馆成立于2008年，毗邻何香凝美术馆，是国内首家以设计和实验艺术为主题的美术馆。
Interview
The names would be abbreviated as “Cleo” (Cleo CHEN), “LIU” (Yang LIU), “CHEN” (Hang CHEN) and “WU” (Yueqin WU).
(之后姓名分别写为“陈昕”、“刘阳”、“航子”、“月钦”)
Cleo: Since the outbreak last February in China, our work and lives changed a lot. Therefore, as an art practitioner, how did you arrange your work and life during this period? Has anything changed?
陈昕：去年国内2月疫情爆发至今，对我们的工作和生活都带来了很大的影响和许多转变。那么想请问你们作为艺术从业者在疫情期间是如何安排自己的工作或生活的？与疫情前有什么不同？
LIU: I did not want to work (Laugh).
刘阳：无心工作。（笑）
CHEN: At that time, we had to embrace the internet to express various emotions and attend events. On account of that, we felt like the project should be transformed to make room for the public, like giving a place for people to speak. There was nothing special, we were in a constricted state at that point in time.
航子：那时候会被网络，周围那些事件和大家的情绪包裹住。我们自己也会觉得之后的项目它需要一个转型，它更多的需要在公共领域有一个表达，就给大家一个地方说话之类的吧。也没有特别的什么呀，就当时还是被包裹的一个状态。
LIU: I felt like everything was nonsense at that moment.
刘阳：我觉得当时做什么都感觉不是太对。
WU: As it was the time for Chinese New Year, but everyone was staying at home with only few tasks to do. My mind felt a little bit scattered because I was being faced with too many intense news updates everyday.
月钦：而且(疫情)刚开始的时候正好经历了在过年嘛，所以大家都呆在家里，也没有太多的工作。我当时感觉自己有点分裂。因为每天都面对很多爆炸式的信息。
What’s more, as we were with our family, we would watch the news on TV a lot. The updates on pandemic situation and the statistical figures appeared on all the different channels all the time. There were not just announcements about the spread of infection, there were also some reports of improvements we had made. For instance, doctors from hospitals all over the country went to Wuhan (the city which suffered the most from the pandemic) to give assistance, or the people in Shandong who delivered tons of food to Wuhan. This kind of solidarity provided us with warm and positive new updates.
因为和家人呆在一起，我们就会每天就会看一些电视上的新闻和各大台的报道。每天就会播一些疫情的状况，比如新增多少、总数多少、死亡多少，然后出院多少。除了有信息的公布，它还会播一些疫情在好转的报道吧。比如，全国各地去援助武汉的医生，比如山东的民众去送菜。这类比较温暖的、积极向上的报道吧。在电视上是一番这样的场景。
At the same time, various independent sources exploded with negative information on Weibo or WeChat (digital social platforms in China). They were saying that the reports on TV were fake, that the reality was the complete opposite. So, when I read these two opposing pieces of information, I was very confused and felt split when thinking: “What was the truth? How reliable are these reports?” Then I became a little anxious and struggled during that period of time. However, this wasn’t that obvious when it came to work.
当时也非常多自媒体在微博或微信上爆一些黑料。比如在电视上是这样的，但实际湖北人民的情况是不一样的一番场景之类的。所以这两方面的信息，我同时看到的话，我就会有一些疑问，也自我有一些分裂，那到底是什么样的一个场景。这些新闻报道的真实可信度有多少。所以我就会在那一段时间有一些焦虑和分裂的心情。在工作上当时的链接还没有特别的清晰。
LIU: In fact, everyone was on vacation in those days, and we didn’t know when we could get back to work. We could get the news through digital platforms which always kept updating every day. Gradually, there were some institutions or individuals trying to do something through their official accounts online. For example, PSA (The Power Station of Art) began a project about morning reading. Whereas, from my position, things like morning reading was just an adjustment for everyone. In addition to receiving news everyday, we received other content but what else could be given to the public to comfort them in this pandemic?
刘阳：其实当时的情况就是大家都在放着假嘛，你也不知道什么时候能回去。你能看到一方面是网络平台的那些消息，一个接一个新的过来，就每天都感觉不一样。慢慢地开始有一些机构，或者是有一些个体，他们也在通过公众号什么的做一些事情。比如说PSA（上海当代艺术博物馆, 英文名为Power Station of Art）做的晨读，随后晚一点也有找设计师做海报设计。可能就像晨读这种东西，我觉得像是一个对大家的一种调剂，就是每天我们除了接收，你全身心的接收这些新闻，或者是各种各样的一些消息之外，然后我还有什么东西能够给到大家一些安慰？
Actually, during that time, many people read more books. For example, readings about philosophy, history or even the plague. It seemed that everyone was pursuing something. Not just reading, there were also people learn to cook, etc. There were too many aspects of our lives that we had no time to pursue and enjoy during the normal, busy time and, so, these things were brought back to us as part of our adjustment to the pandemic pause, even in the very limited indoor space.
其实当时也有很多人重新去看书嘛。包括就看鼠疫啊，或者是看各种各样，有很多哲学家的发声啊什么这些，这其实可以看的东西很多。好像大家都要重新的在这个时候去追寻一点什么东西。另外就是很多人可能会去去做做饮食什么的嘛。就是你怎么样去调节这个生活。
At this time, no one specifically said that we should keep working. This might be because we could not all handle our own situation well at that moment but what could we do to overcome these problems? And how? We could only leave a blank space after these questions. The only thing that might be a reliable solution was keeping calm and thinking, not rushing to act, probably most people were thinking this same thing. Many artists felt that art could not play a practical role within this situation. They had no idea how to respond to that.
所以那个时候没有人去专门提出来说我们应该要工作。我觉得是当时大家自己没有很好的处理自己的状态，但我们应该做什么？应该怎么做？应该是一个问号。就是应该要想一想比急于行动可能要更加靠谱一点。大概是这种感觉吧。当时不是很多艺术家也都觉得其实艺术在这种情况下也起不到什么实际作用。他们也很无力。
I think for arts organisations, some of them were trying to do something. But things of the same kind as before the pandemic were meaningless. And if it acts as merely a calming effect, it can actually be replaced easily.
我觉得对于机构来讲，有一些机构在做一些事情。但是同类的事情没有意义。而且起到的如果是抚慰作用的话，其实也可以被替代。
WU: There were some art institutions which started to publish information online to continue their work at the very beginning of the pandemic. The PSA was one of these institutions which has done quite well and attracted a lot of attention. The project they kept publishing was called the Pandemic Prevention Plan. Some of the content was readings, while other parts involved learning about collections and collaborating with designers. Therefore, when we came to think of our project, maybe just like what Liu said before, we needed to think about how to deal with this kind of new situation and what we could do more effectively because everyone has just experienced a a major disruption or only a small portion of restored reality.
It was the end of March last year when we all returned to Shenzhen to meet up. We sat together face-to-face, had a brainstorm and then communicated together. Our method was to gather all of our feelings and thoughts during the pandemic, and then sort them out. In order to do this, we have held several meetings, some lasting a whole afternoon and, during these meetings, we started to recall and organise those thoughts and memories.
月钦：在疫情期间应该是有一些艺术机构在非常开始，在大家还没有返回工作地点的时候，就在线上推一些东西来持续他们的工作。PSA是做的比较早比较好的，还受到挺多人关注的。他们一直在推应该是叫防疫计划吧。有做这种读书，了解他们的藏品，或者是和设计师合作的。那等到我们的时候，可能就像刚才刘阳说的就是需要想一想怎么来面对这种新的情况，或者是在这种大家都刚经历了很大的灾难，刚回复一点秩序的时候，我们做什么是比较有效的。我们开始考虑这个也是我们3月底，我们大家都回到深圳碰面了，就坐在一起面对面的讨论一起头脑风暴一起去沟通，疫情期间的一些感受和想法，先汇集我们自己的东西，然后再去把它梳理成几条线索吧。所以我们也是开了好几次会，一聊就是整个下午，开始去回忆去整理这些东西。经历了还挺长时间的。
The PSA Series project of Storing Electricity, Smiling, and Getting Together again-from Valentine’s Day to Arbor Day online activities (including the morning reading and the PSD of Pandemic Prevention Plan mentioned above)
PSA“蓄电，微笑，再相聚——从情人节到植树节”线上系列活动 (包含上文提到的晨读和psD防疫计划)相关链接：https://mp.weixin.qq.com/s/QgK0YVGuWI-7f6SQXJfCqA
Cleo: China has basically returned to normal now, so what have you found as the main change in your personal experience or discovery in this period?
陈昕：因为现在国内秩序已经基本恢复正常了，那么回看这段时间，个人经历或发现的转变是什么？
CHEN: Do you mean to say what kind of feelings did we have in the process of returning from the previous online state to the physical world, yes?
航子：就是说我们从之前的线上状态又回复到线下的这个过程当中是一个什么样的感受对吗？
Cleo: Exactly.
陈昕：对的。
CHEN: In fact, I don’t think we have completely returned to normal but have partially transformed into a hybrid form. I say this because, when we were doing public projects, we would still first consider online spaces and platforms. For instance, what are the advantages of doing things online and what new things it could link us to. In terms of the physical world, we would pay more attention to what kind of projects were more suitable for developing in person. Now we had another channel of digital approach, and it was quite convenient for cross-domain or cross-regional programmes. Accordingly, there was already a little part of the physical world which had already been transformed into a digital medium.
航子: 我觉得它其实也没有完全回复到线下的状态。它是部分地转化成一个更丰富地形式。我们在做公共项目的话，都会考虑什么是以线上的方式来进行。就是我们在线上它的优势是什么，它能够把我们链接到什么。线下的我们会根据需要去更注重什么样的项目更适合线下去展开。现在多了这种渠道，如果是跨领域、跨地域的对象没有办法到这边来的话，线上还是挺方便的。所以线下有一部分的东西已经在慢慢地转化了。
WU: If you look at this offline and online problem after more than a year, it is really just a formal problem. At the beginning, everyone might pay more attention to offline activities or exhibitions that are closed, so is that art activity is stagnant, or it has become necessary to use online methods, which is a substituted method, to achieve part of the programme or exhibition.
At the beginning, there were some concerns as well as some technical and platform related problems which needed to be solved. Looking back now after more than a year, it is just a formal channel. It depends on what the project is about, and then you have decide whether to do it online or offline. Many programmes or exhibitions are now combined online and offline. If you are offline, you will have a sense of presence. You can notice the expressions and movements of the guest, and you can communicate with them more directly. This is the advantage of the physical, real world scene. I think online has its benefits, and I find that online audiences are more willing to be more expressive. They may be more willing to ask questions that are not easy to ask offline because there is only one screen-name online, or I can’t see the face of the person or hear their voice, so I would be more willing to throw out my own questions and communicate with guests. This is a very good point that I recently discovered.
月钦：可能经历了一年多再看这个线下线上的问题的话，他就真的只是一个形式上的问题。刚开始可能大家都会比较关注线下的活动或展览都关门了，所以是不是艺术方面的活动要停滞了，或者要用线上的，这种被替代的方式实现一部分。刚开始的时候是有一些顾虑的，也要解决一些技术上、平台上的问题。现在过了一年多再回看，它就是形式上的或者就像航子说的渠道。要看项目在意的点是什么？然后再觉得要做线上还是线下。现在很多都是线上线下结合嘛。线下的话就有一种现场感，可以注意到嘉宾的表情和动作，可以直接和他沟通，这就是现场的优势。我觉得线上也有它的好处，我会发现在线上观众更愿意打开自己。他们可能会更愿意抛出在线下不太好问的问题。因为在线上只有一个笔名，听到声音看不到脸，所以会更愿意抛出自己的疑问和嘉宾沟通。这是近期发现的一个挺好的点。
LIU: Thoughts and changes brought about by the pandemic still exist now. It has proven to be very hard to gain a consensus from the public. However, after this period, our sense of some problems or phenomena have become more and more intensified. This has also continued until now. When we are talking with the public about some of these issues, this is actually a bit of a minefield that was easy to make mistakes with, so we should pay more attention to these issues. Consequently, there is a phenomenon that things which used to be easily set aside have become intensified and can create ambiguity. It is more difficult for people to have a rational discussion during the current situation.
刘阳：到疫情后面延续下来的一些认识和变化，一个是一直延续到今天的。在社会当中形成对事情的共识是越来越艰难的，在疫情之后对于问题、对于制度的认同感啊，对于民族的情绪呀，它其实是阵营越来越激化的，所以也越来越分明了，所以相互之间也很难去说服什么，这一点是一直延续到现在的。所以我们在谈论一些问题，或面向一些公众进行一些讨论的时候，其实这是一个很容易被触碰到的，可能需要留意的点。就是可能过去比较容易形成的共识，或比较容易搁置的东西，在疫情之后只能通过稍微的模糊和回避来做。我觉得现在比较难做理性的探讨了。这是一个。
Another thought is our role as the art museum. Actually, there was a very crucial point in the process of creating this new project. During our preparation, we always felt that the pandemic was about to pass, but we never knew what was going to happen the next day. This was the reason we did not act quickly, and in fact, our actions to it were not prioritized. I felt that I didn’t see it clearly at the time, so when we came back to work, there was a realistic question: how do you reappear as an art institution to the public now?
然后另外一个是我们对于美术馆的角色来讲，其实当时做这个新的项目也有一个蛮关键的点，在我们准备工作的时候就觉得疫情快要过去了，因为你在疫情还没有过去的时候，你不知道第二天会发生什么。这是我们没有去行动的原因，其实也不缺你的这一个行动。感觉当时自己也没有看的多清楚，所以回来工作时，有一个现实的问题：你这个时候作为一个艺术机构，要怎么重新出现在大家面前？
I don’t think we can act as if no pandemic happened and reopen an exhibition that had been closed just like we’re back to normal, as well as restarting the other related activities. Ignoring it seems to cover up too much from this specific period and it doesn’t empathise with the public. So, this was one of our motivations to create this public project. Even until now, what we have in common in doing public projects is that after some things happen, it is difficult to argue with each other from different positions; if something has been experienced together, there will be a common understanding or overview. I may not need to say anything in fact, everyone can already understand.
我觉得不能将一些东西遗忘，像是没有事情发生。把疫情前的展览继续开着，围绕展览做活动。这就过渡地像是掩饰了太多东西，和大众也是无法共情的。所以这是我们去做这个项目的动机。到今天，我们做公共项目的共同点是，有些事情发生过后，相关的立场很难去相互论证；有些事情共同经历过，就会有共同的认知或者概述，我可能不需要去说什么其实大家也能明白。
When we were doing this project, we took an empathetic view of what the people might need. Therefore, we have made the project have a change of focus. As a result of being over saturated with information, this may stop people from thinking their own thoughts on it. What appeared most from the public were the voices of different people, leaders, or other artists and designers, telling everyone how they were thinking and living. In fact, it was nothing different from others, and I couldn’t see anything particularly unique. As a result, we wanted to give the right to narration and communication to ordinary people. Actually, with so much emphasis on sharing these thoughts, the desire to talk about them gets weaker, but it doesn’t disappear completely. Even in this state, it exists and just needs an opportunity to be expressed. That is how this project started.
当时做这个项目的话，是我们如何站在共情的角度思考大家需要什么。所以我们做了一个去中心化的聊天和写作。因为大家在疫情期间都接受太多东西，过多单向的输入导致我们反而无法去自主地思考太多。你周围能出现的也是别人的声音，或者大佬们啊、领袖啊、和其他一些艺术家设计师的身份，来告诉大家自己是怎么想、怎么过的。其实和其他人没有什么区别，在这个过程中没有见到特别有超越性的东西。所以我们就想着说我们应该把这种讲述和交流，交还给普通人。当你知道那么多，讲述的欲望其实也在漫长的过程当中越来越弱，但并没有消失，可能只是需要一个机会去表达。所以就有了这个项目。
When it was completed, we gained much more confidence. I felt that we all could have some discussions restrainedly, and people did want to express their perspectives. This also reflected that the young people nowadays were getting more interested in being vocal and it is something they need to do. A project like this was new for us, a kind of test. Consequently, when we do projects later, we would consider about how could normal people be involved and whether they might need a space of participation. I think the project was affecting all of us simultaneously more or less.
当时这个项目做了之后也给我们特别大的信心，觉得大家是可以有节制地做一些探讨的，也都有表达的欲望。其实以前也知道说现在的年轻人越来越善于表达，也需要表达了。像这个项目就是更直接的一个印证吧。之后我们再去做项目时，会考虑普通人的角色在当中起到的作用和需要给到他们的空间。所以，我觉得这个项目都有在或多或少地影响着我们三个人吧。
Cleo: As the project was a platform of decentralised discussion, which part of it do you like the best? Is there anything else you want to share with the audience?
陈昕：因为这个项目是一个去中心化探讨的平台嘛，所以你们自己最喜欢这个项目的哪个部分？还有没有什么是想分享给观众的？
WU: When I was preparing for this interview, I also liked this “decentralisation” idea the most. In fact, this was also reflected by the following question 5 (Question 5-Have you ever thought about what effect or impact this project was trying to achieve?). The OCAT Shenzhen Pavilion has rarely done such activities before. Previously, we used to do more like professional forums or lectures which were academic, rather than some activities closely connected with the audience. In this term, holding the “O2 chat room” last year was also a beginning. Because as usual, whether we were generating reports, exhibitions, or listening to some lectures and forums in the library, it was all knowledge-based sharing with the unidirectional outputting method. The role of the audiences was always very passive, even the section of mutual communication was also around the theme set by the speaker, or the content mentioned before.
月钦：我在准备这个采访的时候，想的也是最喜欢这个“去中心化”的想法。其实这个也关联到后面的问题5（问题5 – 有没有思考过这个项目是想要达到一个什么样的效果或影响？）。OCAT深圳馆之前比较少做这类活动。之前比较常做看起来比较专业、学术性强的专业论坛或讲座。很少会做一些和观众联系得很紧密的活动。其实去年做这个O2聊天室的时候，也是一个开启。因为按照惯常来说，我们无论是做报道、展览、还是在图书馆里听一些讲座和论坛都是一个自上而下的一个知识型的分享。观众是作为一个被动者的角色去倾听去学习，相互交流也是围绕着讲者定的主题，或在一个多小时里讲的内容。
When designing the O2 chat room, we intended to only provide a platform and topics that everyone could discuss. Our role was to lead and connect. Just focusing on encouraging the audience to share, tell, and discuss with each other. We had also found the results amazing during the course of four games. Every scene there would be audiences sharing spontaneously, especially during the last two games. Although they didn’t know each other and could only talk through the audios, they still discussed a lot. With regard to the common experiences and feelings between everyone, they did give each other some opinions or suggestions. In conclusion, it was an incredible experience.
O2聊天室我们在设计的时候就是打算只提供一个平台和给大家可以讨论的话题。我们的角色就是引导和串联。鼓励在场的观众去分享和述说，鼓励他们相互之间的讨论。不会做其他的作用。在四场的过程中我们也取得了一个挺好的效果。每一场都会有观众自发地分享。特别到后面两场，虽然他们都是不认识的，就是在线上听彼此的声音，但还是引起了非常多的讨论。就大家之间共同的经历和感受，还是能给到对方一些观点或建议的。其实是一个挺好的尝试的。
CHEN: Every stage the audience participated in was great, including the overall investment and their attention to the public issues. Since it was during the pandemic, it would cause everyone’s thinking to pay more attention to their surrounding environment and the wider context. Because the pandemic contained so many different factors, we’ve selected four main directions that we thought were suitable… (The directions mentioned above were the four themes of the O2 chat room: 1 . When the Internet has become the only thing we have. 2. Public communicating space and independent thinking; 3. Another eye; 4. Tearing and Recovering)
航子：观众们参与进来的整个状态就是挺棒的，包括到观众们整体的投入度和对公共议题的关注。当时在疫情这种特别的环境下，大家的思维多少会更加关注于周围环境，以及所涉及的语境。当时因为疫情其实也包含了太多可以说的层面，所以我们讨论出了这四个方向，我们认为是很符合当时大家的状态的。（这里提到的方向就是O2聊天室的四个主题：1. 当我们只有网络；2. 公共话语空间与独立思考；3.另一只眼睛；4.撕裂与弥合 ）
WU: Actually, there were a few great topics that everyone wanted to talk about.
月钦：其实蛮击中他们的，也是大家想要说的几个话题。
CHEN: They effected everyone’s thoughts, that is, everyone could have something to add. Correspondingly, Consequently, we had a space that didn’t call on anyone specifically, but focused on public discussion. The guests involved were happy to participate by sharing and discussing these with each other. As a consequence of this virtual and online status, everyone could express it even more. The physical social pressure had gone, which could let them be more relaxed.
航子：其实就能引起大家的共情吧，就是能够在这里面有话说，有自己的意见想要表达。然后又有这样的空间，然后又达到了这种没有特别说大家要去中心化，这使大家很自觉就形成了一个公共讨论的氛围。我们邀请的嘉宾也很乐于和大家分享和探讨。因为这种虚拟的、线上的状态，大家更加可以表达了。那种在线下与人相处的社交压力明显消失了，这使大家呈现出更放松的一种状态。
LIU: I totally agreed with selecting these themes for the chat room and we’ve paid a lot of attention to them. It’s not only about empathizing with audiences, but also about the problems exposed during this and the experience of this current situation that is the focus of our institution. The four themes formed an organic combination, all of them were necessary and representative. Regarding these arrangements, WU is being modest. We’ve made lots of arrangements of the context, it isn’t necessarily about finding only the right guests, you also have to make sure the form of dialogue and communication is right.
刘阳：我很赞同聊天室的几个主题，确实是我们斟酌过的。它不仅仅是跟大家共情，而且是和疫情中暴露出来的问题，和大体的现象，基本是我们的覆盖面。通过这四个主题还是能够形成一个有机的组合，四个领域都很有必要，也很有代表性。它们组合在一起也是很有机的。关于铺排顺序这些，月钦有点谦虚了哈哈。虽然我们背后没有做过很多东西，但我们要做的东西也没有因此而少了。反而以前这种找嘉宾的活，你要把嘉宾找对，跟嘉宾形成到沟通跟对话就可以了。
I remember at the time we considered which theme should come first, how to cut into the topic suitably, gently, influentially, and effectively, in a way that had the potential to be expanded on, or even which part to talk about at which point, etc. The project was actually arranged by considering about emotion and rhythm.
像这个项目，我记得当时我们去考虑哪一个主题在最先，怎么切入是最适合的，温和的，又有影响力的，或者是有展开的可能性的，哪一个部分去讲什么，这次理的顺序，当中其实是有情绪和节奏上的铺排的。
In addition, if you wanted to mobilize everyone to discuss actively, it’s actually not that simple to facilitate the chat. We’ve even made an Excel form for prearrangement which everyone signed up to, this helped to understand everyone’s situation or what they might want to express, etc. The preparation that everyone can participate in this project, and discussion can cover everyone, when to introduce what kind of topic, who is next to respond, who is the one to share their stories. These are all are related. When you ask a question, many Chinese audiences don’t answer it immediately or in detail. So we need to guide them to offer more details in the project and to help them to express their thoughts.
另外，要调动起大家都在这里面发言的话，其实串场也没有那么简单。当时还做了Excel的表格，在大家报名的时候，就已经开始铺排。就了解每个人的状况和想表达的东西等等。就是为了后面每一场可以组织大家，然后覆盖到每一个人，或者是在什么时候引入什么样的话题，让谁来回应，让谁来讲述，都是有关联的。因为国内的观众不是你抛出一个问题，大家就会开始发言就会开始说，其实没有到这样的一个状态。所以在这个项目当中我们是融入了这样的一些心思和方法，去触碰或者去铺排。
It’s also not enough just to let everyone discuss with each other, because the audience actually came to learn something. Thus, where this might come from? On the one hand, we did have very insightful audiences, on the other hand, we actually had done a lot of research. We also needed to prepare the propositions, to provide everyone with something to expand on, or create space to think more about the topics. We even interviewed different people about the questions of “Public Space and Independent Thinking”, some things were not easy to discuss, and some people knew a lot but they wouldn’t like to speak out. We also found someone in the press and communicated with them behind the scenes, and then went to analyze with everyone at the site of the project to let audiences realize how would people with that backgrounds face these problems with their judgments and so on. In fact, there were still a lot of things we didn’t cover.
也不能完全让大家互相讲述就完了，因为观众来到这个活动其实是想要收获一些东西的。那么干货从哪里来？一方面是我们也确实有观众很有见地，另一方面我们其实也要做功课。我们自己也要就命题做功课，去提供给大家一些可以去展开的，或者是有一些知识性的可以吸收的空间。甚至包括我们当时也采访过不同的人，像“公共空间与独立思考“那个话题的时候，有一些东西其实不太好去触碰，有些人知道很多东西，但不一定会去现身说法。所以我们也找了新闻界的一些人，和他们做幕后的聊天和沟通，然后在活动现场当时再去和大家分析说，像他们这样背景的人会怎么面对这些问题，在当时又该怎么判断等等。就其实还是有很多背后的功课在做的。
And I was quite satisfied with the “joint writing”. In fact, it had already been done by others before, but it was really suited to our context, like everyone could erase and overthrow each other more dynamically.
那个“联合写作”我是比较满意的。其实别的地方别的人也有做，但可能是那种比较强势的，大家可以互相擦除和推翻的，就暴力型的那种。
But the rule we made at the time was that everyone could not change what the former said, but they could create their own space freely. It could be treated as a mirror image of the real society, like how would we express our opinions on the basis of respecting the thoughts of others. We should still have our own attitude.
但是我们当时定的规则是每个人都不能改前面的人说的话，但可以在自己的篇幅理发挥。我们就把它当作现实社会里的一个镜像吧。你在尊重别人书写的基础之上，怎么去表达自己想要说的故事。我们还是有自己的有态度的。
However, there were still regrets. It was something we discussed after the text was finished, it was because of the rules we laid down that the audiences were not allowed to change the prior person’s opinion. Despite not being able to change what the previous person had said, if someone was very good at observing the relationship in society, people’s way of thinking, and human nature from the perspective of writing, then he could also see the relationship between people in the process of self-expression. Therefore I always thought: could we tell what everyone was trying to do from the text? They were always trying to confirm the previous one. Hence, it’s not just about a confirmation of the relationship between the front and back ends. It could have been that the second-to-last person disagreed with the person in the middle, so had taken over an answer. Then how could he use his own way to connect several previous stories to complete the whole round? There would be a lot of identities and disagreements involved, and also recognition of others’ expression. I thought that if someone could do this kind of research or analysis, it must be quite interesting. The disappointment was that we did not have time to explore this during that time.
有一个东西没有做到，我觉得有点遗憾，但也是我期待的。当时有讨论过说，文本写完了之后，因为我们定下来的规则。如果有人非常擅长从写作的角度去观察社会中的关系，人的思考方式，人性，他可以从不能纂改前面人的，但可以自我发挥的过程中，可以看得到人和人的关系。从文本里能否看的到说，有些人在试图做什么呢。他在试图印证前面的。而且这个东西不仅仅是前后两端的印证关系。还有些人可能倒数第二个不认同中间的某个人的写作推翻或反转的方式，那他又怎么用自己的方式去衔接上好几篇前的故事，去完成一个故事转向。就是这里面有很多的认同不认同，有很多如何理解他人表达的东西。我感觉如果有人做这种讲述分析的话，可能会挺有意思的。我们当时是没有来得及去做这个事情。
Cleo: The project was still very close to the audience, which was not the same as the previous lectures and forums. In your opinion, how could you balance the popularization and professionalism of public projects?
陈昕：因为这个项目还是比较接近观众的，和以往的讲座、论坛不太一样，那在您们看来应如何平衡公共项目的大众化和专业性呢？
WU: We need both.
月钦：我觉得可能都需要有吧。
CHEN: We could neither purely allow one way of doing something that the audience must accept, nor could be completely without guidance and clues. The two states must occur simultaneously, including the interaction and the later status of audiences’ participation which could actually form feedback. It may affect your future plans, or the directions you want to explore.
航子：也不能纯粹地把一条路锁死，让观众去单向接受，也不能完全没有引导和线索串联。它是两者并行的一个状态，包括互动和观众后期参与的状况，其实可以形成反馈。它可能会影响你以后在一些环节的设计，或者是你想探讨和想做的方向，它可能也会有一定的影响。
WU: What kind of activities an art museum does, whether it is more professional or more connected to the audience, are connected to its position. This will depend on how the art gallery positions itself. Whether it’s more professional or community-oriented that has a closer relationship with residents, or is it more focusing on children like A4(an institution). Even if the position of an institution is biased, it should take into account a wider group of people too. I think we need to consider about the audience, they should participate or have a certain connection with the project, as well as interactivity.
月钦：一个美术馆要做什么类型的活动，要更有专业性还是更联系观众，可能首先会和它的定位相关。要看美术馆是怎么定位自己。它是更偏向专业型研究型的，还是更偏向社区，和居民联系比较紧，还是像A4那样更注重每年和儿童打交道。即使一个美术馆定位有偏重的话也应该顾及到更广泛的一个人群。我觉得要考虑到观众，要参与到，也要和机构有一定联系，还有互动性吧。
LIU: That point is great. In the field of public education, we can feel a sense of unity. It’s like on one aspect art museums were saying that public education was very important. On the other one, the resources available to these museums were very limited. Thirdly, we could find that most of the projects may be the public guided tours for special groups of people, such as children’s education, that’s all the most obvious thing.
刘阳：我觉得月钦这个说的挺好。公共教育其实能感受到一种抱团取暖的感觉。就一方面美术馆在说公共教育很重要，另一方面其实这些馆能得到的资源很有限，第三方面你会发现公教大多数可能是公众导览，特殊人群的，比如儿童的教育啊，最明显就是这些了。
What you had just talked about reminds me of this problem, I think the reasons might be: First of all, people working in public education should know to what extent the problem was in their own knowledge structure. When it came to the balancing problem, you needed to have to be able to go deeper yourself, then take a simple matter from this as a goal. You must consider different audiences and adjust to their knowledge level in different ways. But as a working individual, whether it was about the problem itself, or the ideas and the Art world, you should always have professional requirements for yourself.
你们刚聊的这些我就想起来，对于这个问题，我觉得蛮大的一个原因，首先是做公教的人自己的问题是和自己的知识结构在哪个程度上。关系到平衡这个问题，就是你得自己先能够深入。然后把浅出这个事情作为一个目标，你肯定要考虑不同的受众，用不同的方式去调节他的难易程度。但首先作为工作的个体，不管是在问题本身，还是对于理念、艺术界的东西，对自己也应该有专业上的要求。
I don’t think that it is a service relationship with the curator of the exhibition, or what you need to do is to explain or make efforts in simple terms. You have to consider a complex issue first, and then consider how to present this for different levels of understanding. We all should have this ability to adjust to their abilities.
跟展览的策展人不要觉得是一种服务关系，或只需要阐释或浅出就ok。你要先深入得进去，然后再考虑用哪种方式去输出，这才是达到平衡的关键。应该要有这样的能力去调节自己的灵活度。
CHEN: I don’t think I can be included in that. (Laughs) I feel that everyone’s demands are still very different. When they were complaining about things whether from the institutional or structural constraints, or the direction and philosophy of their work, they didn’t actually understand it. At that time, it was obvious that everyone was doing various things, including inside of the institutions and outside. At that time, many of the people who participated were from the National Art Gallery or local museums. In fact, everyone did much of the same. It seems that I didn’t want to break through the siege, or to have a new direction of exploration.
航子：我就觉得我抱不到那个团。（笑）就感觉大家的诉求还是很不一样的。很多时候他们在抱怨的东西，无论从体制上，还是结构的限制也好，或者是说个人的一个工作的方向和理念也好，其实他们自己也没有想的特别明白。那时很明显能看出大家做的事情很不一样，包括体制内和体制外也很不一样。当时参与的人很多是国家美术馆，或地方博物馆，大家其实做的事情大同小异。好像没有想突破重围，或者有新方向的探索。
We shared the project (In)finite Museum Night at the time. Everyone thought it was good and we did a good job by exploring that direction. However, things like this do happen relatively rarely in art museums and institutions. No one has the intention of developing a new direction. This thinking sometimes prevents actions. It has a lot to do with the awareness of the staff in each agency.
我们当时分享“美术馆之夜”，大家都觉得不错，这个方向做得好，但是我觉得这个事情在美术馆和艺术机构里确实发生得比较少，大家没有意愿想往这方面发展，有时候理念会阻止行动。它和每个机构里的工作人员的意识是很有关系的。
The link of (In)finite Museum Night:
华·美术馆活动“美术馆之夜“的相关链接：
https://mp.weixin.qq.com/s/UW0jzA4CrZvUWgRjZzQFmg
https://mp.weixin.qq.com/s/Nq2yXuMTvYnmjFbKRJq5ZA
LIU: Public projects are not superficial. There are various kinds of various groups in the public community. If you really want to engage with the public, you may have to be flexible and able to meet the needs of people at different levels. Some people require more advanced engagement, while others are easier. Even just in terms of self-demand, we should at least be able to do this.
刘阳：公共不等于浅。公共的群体里面是有很多层次的。如果你真的要实现公共性的话，你可能就要有弹性，能应对不同层度需求的人，有些人要求得深一些，有人浅一点。那对于自我要求来讲的话，也要达到这种状态。
So in the process of creating O2 chat room as we said earlier, we couldn’t just stop at letting everyone talk to each other, we still had to do things that could improve and enhance the projects. This is related to our consciousness.
所以像我们前面说的做O2聊天室的过程当中，也不能仅仅只停留在让大家互相讲述，就是你该提升、该拔高的东西还是得要去做。和你的意识还是蛮有关系的。
WU: Public projects are quite two-sided. It is necessary to connect with the exhibition and research departments to discuss the exhibitions or research projects together, and know what the concept and topic the curator is trying to convey. Then we have to come to the following consideration of what kind of professional forums or lectures we need to output, and also consider the diversity of the public and what they can accept. Although what we do is to contact the public community more, we would also collect professional concepts and ideas to support it, and we would still throw out some content and information. As for whether the audience could accept or realise these points or not, it’s also a point that we shouldn’t ignore when planning or considering projects.
月钦：公共项目还是挺两面性的。既要联通到展览部、研究部，一起讨论一个展览或研究型的项目，知道策展人想要传达表达的概念和议题是什么。然后又要联通到下面考虑到我们需要输出什么样专业类型的论坛或讲座，又要考虑到公众的多样性，什么是他们能够接受的。虽然我们做的是联系公众社区比较多的，但也会有比较专业的概念和想法去支撑他，在适当的环节适当的点，我们还是会抛出一些有内容、知识性的输出。至于观众能不能接受，或get到这些点，就是我们在做策划或考虑项目的时候并不能忽略这个。
Cleo: What kind of changes have taken place in the domestic public education industry or the entire art museum group during the pandemic?
陈昕：国内的公教行业或整个美术馆群在疫情期间发生了一个什么样转变？
WU: Obviously, we’ve all turned our attentions and work online.
月钦：就明显大家都做线上了。（笑）
Cleo: Exactly.
陈昕：是的。
CHEN: And at that time, many people were discussing issues around the pandemic, whether to do exhibitions or not. The pandemic topic was even included in the official needs. Despite the pandemic period I wanted to meet the situation head on and I wanted to make things happen quickly, this needed to be done effectively. The entire art museum industry actually had devices and mechanisms for this. It has completely turned to cope with the conditions of the pandemic. However, we still chose the topics we were most concerned about and put them into practice.
航子：而且那个时候发现很多人就是围绕疫情来展开议题，无论是展览也好，包括也有官方的需求。根据疫情这个东西，我要应景，我要当下立刻去发生，我要去实际去做事情。整个美术馆行业其实也是有这个风向标。完全也是倒向了疫情，我们主要还是选择了自己最关注的议题去发生吧。
LIU: In fact, it is not only for the public education. The public education was most obviously the online one, but there was not only us. We were all the same. As for the art industry, everyone was aware that when we had no way to link with foreign artists and treated them as the main body of art, a lot of artistic creation and artistic attention turned to be internal. One way was the cooperation with domestic artists, and the other was the re-exposure of locality. It was the field of observation within which we currently work in. This was quite obvious and was including artistic creation and the project itself. Like communities and local discoveries, these two directions should continue to accumulate in hot spots. In the past, people regarded this kind of project as something that was done by artists, for the public, and cared about the relationship with the public. Some artists lived in another art system and totally didn’t need to think about the public. After the pandemic, public awareness has increased, and the objects of everyone’s work had been internalized. I think that the entire art world should be allowed to make public and community-based creations or projects. Then there could be more kindness and understanding. I wouldn’t divide it like I used to say, community or connected artists, I’m not that kind of person.
刘阳：其实不仅仅是对公共教育。公教最明显就是线上的这个，但也不光是公教。其他各种项目都是一样的。对于艺术这个行业，大家都意识到了，当你没有办法和国外的艺术家链接，把他们作为艺术主体的时候，很多艺术创作、艺术关注转向内部。一个是对于国内艺术家的合作，一个是在地性被重提，它是我们目前工作对象可及的观察田野。这是一个蛮明显的，现在包括艺术创作和项目本身都是这种情况。像社区，以及本地的发现，这两个方向应该是往热点上不断的在累积。过去大家把这种项目看作是，某些艺术家去做的，面向大众的，去在乎跟公众的关系。某些艺术家在另一个艺术系统生活，不用去考虑大众，不用去不在这个系统。在疫情后公共意识的增强，大家工作的对象内部化。我觉得应该让整个艺术界对于公共性、社区性的创作或项目。都会有更多地善意和理解。不会像以前一样再去划分说，社区性或和大众关联的艺术家，我可能不是这一类。
CHEN: At that time, I heard that because of the pandemic, the operation of MOMA was not well, so the marginal public education system staff were fired from outside. In fact, when I heard this news, I was very sad. It seemed that the channel facing the audience was the first to be targeted, we seemed to be seen as the dispensable ones. It was like a crisis of survival and at the end of the world, you were the first group of people to be left behind. This was what I thought, I don’t know, maybe from the view of the public, they might not even know what we were doing. Then I interviewed many interns and talked about that position. The first thing they talked about was exhibition, and the thing they wanted to contact most was curation. Besides those, they didn’t think about anything else in this field. I also asked them what was the role of the public in the art gallery? Or what did they know about it? They would directly say about the curation or exhibition. At present, there were still too many misunderstandings about this field in China. We are always in a marginal position.
航子：当时不是听说MOMA那边因为疫情，运营状况不是太好，所以开掉了外聘的边缘性的公教系统的人员。其实听到这个消息的时候还是挺难过，好像面向观众的渠道是最首先被盯上的，然后这是属于边缘的状态，好像可有可无。好像是生存大危机一样，到世界末日，你好像是首先被抛下的那一群人。就是这点让我觉得，我不知道，可能这几年来从事这个事情，可能在大众眼里，他们可能根本真的不知道你在干什么。然后面试了那么多实习生，聊到这个岗位，他们首先说的是展览，他们想要接触的是策展，他们对这个职务和这个领域的概念甚至是0的状态。或者我问公共在美术馆里的角色是什么样子的？或他有什么认识？他会直接和你说策展或展览的事情。这个目前来说，国内对于这个事情还是有误解在，或者这个一直处于一个边缘的地位。
LIU: This was more obvious before the epidemic, but it has changed after the period. In fact, the space of the “white box” (a name of the the Art institutions that hold exhibitions) has expired during the period, because there was no way for everyone to enter the space of the white box. Another experimental site during this period of time, was that everyone would find the charm of their experiments in other places, or place art back into the social scene. The vitality and possibility of this was more anticipated and more promising than the white box. Some things that couldn’t be anticipated could even inspire more new possibilities. This was being accepted in the art world, and its charm was renewed.
刘阳：这个在疫情前是比较明显的，疫情之后有在变化。其实白盒子的空间在疫情期间已经失效，因为大家没有办法进去白盒子的空间。另一个实验场所在这段时间里面，大家会发现你在其他场所进行实验的魅力，或者是说把艺术放回到社会的现场中去，这其中的生机和可能性比白盒子更有期待和无法预期的一些东西，更能激发出新的可能。这个在艺术界里是在接纳着，和重新发出它的魅力的。
On the other hand, it’s about whether public projects are equivalent to curation. This is what we practitioners need to show in the creativity of public projects, and the the benefits are not less than those exhibitions at all, and could also impress the public and promote the Art creation. If this is done, everyone would realize that there are many things that could be done in this field. In the past, as CHEN said, in many organizations, there was not enough space for public projects to work independently. We are in a relatively good situation now, including the era we are in, there is also room for full absorption, including the positioning between professionalism and the public, and you can also define it through your own vision and methods. However, how to let it affect more people and get rid of stereotypes? It may depend on something that we do.
另一方面来讲的话，关于公共项目是否等同于策展。这是我们从业人得要去展现出公共项目当中的创造性，和它不亚于展览中能触及的东西，对人的打动和对作品创造的推动。做到这些的话，大家会认识到这里面有很多可做的东西。以前像航子所说的那样，在很多机构里，没有去充分激发公共项目可以独立工作的空间，我们还算比较好的状况。包括我们在的时代也是有充分吸收的空间，包括对专业性和大众之间的定位，也可以通过自己的视野和方式去定义它，但它能不能影响到更多的人，能不能刷新大家的认识。可能就要靠我们不断去做的一些东西。
The huge difference from the West is that the West would not say that publicity is not only important, but a very important part in the entire system and social fundraising. Actually, when discussing the concept of “public” in China, it is actually more about getting close to the meaning of Western society. However, there are many differences within the inner logic between public education in Western countries and China, so there must be some bluntness to this. Therefore, we still need to combine our own background and situation, and have our own ideas and identification for specific goals.
和西方蛮大的差别就是，西方不会说公共性不重要，公共是整个机制和社会筹款里一个非常重要的说明。和国内不一样，国内讨论到公共其实更多是追逐西方社会价值。但实际上背后的运转逻辑有一些差别，所以当中肯定会有一些生硬的地方。所以还是要结合自己的背景和状况，要有自己的理解和认定的一个目标。
Cleo: I also followed some activities of art museums, and I really feel that they have shifted from physical artworks to the spread of online artistic thoughts. It feels that public education has become more important. Then I would like to ask what do you think of the relationship between online platforms and physical space?
陈昕：我在这边也有关注美术馆的一些活动。我有很真切地感受到他们从线下的、实体的艺术品转向了线上的艺术思维的传播。就感觉公教变得更重要了。然后还想请问你们觉得在线平台和实体空间的关系是什么呢？
LIU: They are not a relationship of reflection either. That is, online is the digital community, and offline is the physical space. Facing with different dimensions, there must be different goals and different methods. Advantages WU and CHEN have mentioned are that they could be connected to a wider network, and cross the physical distance to achieve exchanges within a wider coverage. To a certain extent, it has returned to the blueprint that the Internet originally gave to the world— we could achieve an unhindered communication. In fact, it is true that there are some issues that are not easy to implement physically, but if they are online, there will be a digital space, and then more people from different regions could have the opportunity to participate remotely.
刘阳：他们也不是一个镜像关系。就是线上是线上的社区，实体空间是实体空间的工作场域。面对不同的工作场域就要有不同的目标和不同的方法。好处刚月钦和航子都讲到了，可以链接到更广泛的网络，和更广泛的人，可以跨越物理上的距离去实现一些交流。某种程度上，它恢复到了互联网最初给世界的蓝图，就是我们可以实现到不受阻碍的一些交流。事实上也确实是，有一些议题不太好在线下实现，但在线上的话，就有一些空间，然后可以让更多不同地方的人都有机会参与进来。
CHEN: It is not only about real-time state, but also the state of knowledge sharing. Just like the contribution and knowledge-sharing status emphasized by the early founders of the World Wide Web, comparing with this, offline might be a bit more conservative. Whereas, they are not in an antagonistic relationship.
航子：它不仅仅是实时的状态，也是知识分享的状态。就像早期万维网创立的人强调的贡献性、知识共享型的状态，线下反而有点保守。但他们也不是对立的，泾渭分明的状态和关系。
LIU: Neither opposing, nor mirroring.
刘阳：不对立，也不是镜像。
CHEN: Right. It depends on it and what field the object needs. There is choice to make or it may be a combination of online and offline.
航子：对。还是看事情、这个对象需要什么场域。准备好去选择，也可能是线上下做结合的嘛。
LIU: Current blockchain, digital art.
刘阳：现在的区块链，数字艺术。
CHEN: About decentralisation.
航子：就是去中心化的。
LIU: Yes, as a financial investment approach, a brand-new product has been made with the help of online platforms. It’s about how you use the line as a space or parallel world, in which many possibilities might occur. Regardless of whether this thing is being used as art or as an investment, just on its own, it shows how you understand online channels, which is another field of your work, and a world in which art may emerge. If you want to go deeper, there are lots of things worth exploring.
刘阳：对，作为一种金融投资手段，借助线上的平台，做成了一个全新的产品。那这个可能它更像是你如何把线上作为一种空间或平行世界，在里面可以发生很多可能性。姑且不论这个东西作为艺术还是作为投资在弄，就像这个事情一样，它展现的是在你如何理解线上的渠道，就是你另一个工作的场域，和艺术可能发生的一个世界吧。如果你要往深度去弄的话，这其中有很多东西值得再去探索。
CHEN: This is what happens from using a certain medium, but it’s like that when it comes to relationships.
航子：这是作为媒介这个方向，但谈到关系的话就是那样。
Cleo: The last question, do you have any suggestions for young people who aim to work in the field of public education?
陈昕：最后一个问题是想请问你们有什么建议给到想要从事公教行业的青年吗？
CHEN: Firstly, figure out what you want to do. (Laughs) It’s really important. And you need to prepare to be an all-rounder, because you need to do everything, from beginning to end, from scratch to establishing.
航子：先搞清楚他想要做什么。（笑）挺好的。要有做一个多面手的觉悟。什么都要干，就是从头到尾、从无到有的一个状态。
LIU: Exactly. To make yourself worthy of lofty ideals, but also to be able to stand on the ground. It is also necessary to work hard.
刘阳：对。要让自己既配得起有高远的理想，又要能够脚踏实地。埋头干活也是要的。
CHEN: Nonetheless, now more and more people realized there is still a position like this which is a good trend.
航子：不过现在慢慢地越来越多人知道还可以有这个职务，或者美术馆里有这样的岗位，有这样的事情可以从事也挺好的。
LIU: In terms of the direction we are doing now, the requirements of comprehensive abilities are still very strict. At the same time, it may not be as simple as the exhibition department producing several exhibitions during the year. You need to have ability of both dealing with extended issues and working with ideas and specific goals. And everyone is also interspersed with each other, so you have to deal various things simultaneously with flexibility. To ensure these, the personal professional ability is still needed.
刘阳：其实我们现在做的方向来说，对人的综合能力的要求还是很高的。同时他可能产出的时候，不一定像展览部一样一年几个展览那么清晰。你既要处理很多延伸出来的东西，你也要有自己的工作思路和目标。大家相互之间也是穿插的。你要同时应对，你的灵活度和弹性要有。要保证这些的话，对个人的专业能力要求还是蛮高的。还是那句既能深入又能浅出。
In terms of this point, if you want to achieve flexibility in public projects, you not only need to have related knowledge, but also need to have the ability to transform the project. If you only stay at the surface level, or you couldn’t go deep into the artistic dialogue, or you just only take it as social services, these are all treated as limitations to public projects. You may prevent other possibilities of the social elements to art.
这一点上来讲的话，如果想要在公共项目实现灵活度，你不但要有相关概念，还要有项目的转换能力。如果你只停留在表面，或者无法与艺术创作进行对话，抑或是只注重社会服务，这些都是对公共项目的阉割，你自己亲手阉割掉了这些如何激发艺术社会属性的可能性。
But having said that, this is still very ideal. It does not mean that there are all the same cases in every organization. You have to look at it according to the needs of the institution, and also the needs of your own position. It is also helpful to do audience surveys and research. The core is still to have the ability of promoting and innovating. This is required regardless of the career.
但是话说回来，这是比较高远的理想，也不是说每个机构里面都是这种情况，你要根据机构的需求来看，你也要有自己的界定，做观众调查和研究也是很好的工作方向。核心还是要有自我要求和创新的能力。这是无论哪一个层面的工作都要的。
CHEN: The work of public education is also changing as time goes by. Including the things you care about, or whether you are in contact with the exhibition, or the exploration in the network of your own development, no matter the medium of expression, the topics being discussed, or the people involved, they are always changing. Public education is changing along with the change of perception of society.
航子：这个工作也在随时代变化而变化。包括你关注的东西，跟展览联系也好，或者你自己发展的脉络里的探索也好，无论它表达的媒介，或者讨论的议题，还是参与进来的人员，它都是一直在变化的。虽然很多工作是这样的，但在这个方向它又尤其有这个，跟随社会发生的一些事情的一个问题意识变化而变化的东西。
Staff
Host: Cleo CHEN
Contact Person: Cleo CHEN
Planner: Cleo CHEN
Text: Cleo CHEN
Translator: Jiaqi GAO
Proofreading: Rebecca TUTTHILL, Calum BAIRD
